End of an era?

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The biggest surprise is not that the club have made this decision, but that there has been relatively little comment on Dragons Den about it....
I hope the prevarication on the part of those in charge and the very fact of moving away from ODP has not disillusioned the majority of the "home" support

Whey hey. At last the club has a long term plan, secured finance and a commitment to engage with the supporters on a regular basis. This sounds like a promising and refreshing start and I salute the management for taking this brave step. Moving the administration and training are key pillars to building success in the area and a vital ingredient should be a name change, at least to remove 'London', and let's face it, the club probably has more resonance with Welsh now being closer to the Severn bridge than it had with 'Exiles' for many years.

I'll miss watching the first XV and wish you all the luck in the future but after a year of travelling up the M40 my heart remains in ODP and maybe we can rebuild a London Exiles there.

The final fart in the face of us who stuck by the club in less fashionable times.

It was one thing following us in the Premisership in Oxford, that made sense, but this...

I imagine I'll be watching LS next season.

It was mentioned on another thread that even playing a couple of matches at ODP as a token of thanks / goodwill gesture to the old traditional supporters whould upset the new Oxford fan base (which I'm yet to be convinced exists or will indeed develop). I might be biased and would rather be back at ODP, but I really do hope the powers that be at least explore the possibility.

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david evans
It was mentioned on another thread that even playing a couple of matches at ODP as a token of thanks / goodwill gesture to the old traditional supporters whould upset the new Oxford fan base (which I'm yet to be convinced exists or will indeed develop). I might be biased and would rather be back at ODP, but I really do hope the powers that be at least explore the possibility.

As one of the mythical Oxford based supporters I would be happy to go to ODP for a cup game. Was disappointed there wasn't one last year with the rearranged fixtures.

You know us Welsh love our mythical characters! Glad you agree though. Cant see that it would do any harm

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david evans
You know us Welsh love our mythical characters! Glad you agree though. Cant see that it would do any harm

I don't think you'll find many if any of us Oxford-not-London-not-Welsh-new-fans on here that disagree with you that it would be nice to have a couple of games at ODP - I certainly don't.

However....

Oxfordshire fans do exist - I think we're in the low three figures based on the fact that I know of probably about 30 of them and certainly don't know everyone, if you see what I mean.

The biggest problem last year in getting Oxford people through the doors was the uncertainty factor - "what's the point in getting involved if they're going to be off at the end of the season?"

Basically, you're trying to get as many people on-board as possible, from a standing start, to have a deepening commitment to the club. Those posting on here are in the bag, so to speak, and yes I'd quite happily go to the odd match at ODP, but from a business strategy point of view multi-location makes no sense whatsoever. The most successful, and indeed controversial, relocation of recent years was Wimbledon to MK. In that case they made a totally hard headed decision that they didn't expect any of their pre-existing fans at all to follow them to MK, pretty much said as much, and threw themselves wholeheartedly into MK life - to the extent that they now have gates of several thousand.

LW have not taken that view, indeed they've made all the right noises about retaining fans from both ends of the M40, but I know that for the Oxford waverers the big thing now is going to be demonstrating commitment to the city - moving the admin, training and marketing up here in the next couple of months is the right thing to do - as is getting into the local schools. Basically doing a Wimbledon but saying to the pre-existing fans that "we're not changing our name, you're still welcome, but the future for the first team is Oxford." MK Dons pretty much said to their old fanbase "you're not welcome, the future is MK" so there's already been a compromise.

If, and it's a hell of a big if, Oxford is going to be made to work, then Oxford has to be the focus for everything LW does at a professional level. Any vacillating backwards and forwards for the odd one-off will do damage to that and compromise it, and make the job all the harder in demonstrating that LW are at home in Oxford. It's great that ODP is staying as the centre for the amateur set-up - unlike Wimbledon it means that the club can try and keep the legacy going without having to cut all ties - but the sad, harsh business truth is that if Oxford is going to work then the population of Oxfordshire have to be told until we're blue in the face that Welsh are here, and we're staying here, and we're now part of their community, to get them to buy into it.

Part of the problem last year was expecting people to turn up just because there was prem rugby on offer on their doorstep. To be honest, that probably worked better than it should have done. The challenge is to get people to keep coming back, and make it sustainable. We (ie the Oxford fans that do post on here) have got a huge job of work on over the coming months to make it work; whether that's being positive in the pubs, dragging people up to the ground, everything. Since the announcement I've worn my shirt again in the streets, simply because little things like seeing a LW shirt in the pub, or the Cornmarket all help to make the club seem like a normal part of the city, not just a couple of coachloads of Londoners up on a jolly on the odd Sunday afternoon (incidentally I'd encourage other Oxford locals to consider doing the same).

All because a decision has been made and although not everyone agrees with it I don't want Welsh going back to ODP in 2,3,4,10 years with their tails between their legs having gone bust without having felt that people up here gave it a good go.

Us new fans up here have got a bit of a responsibility to try and do our best by the club and support them up here - sort of on your behalf if you like, because at this level of investment failure is not just embarrassing.... I know you and many others didn't/don't want Welsh to go, but without being patronising we've got to look after it for you up here, so that it works.

Sorry, I'm rambling a bit but just trying to explain as best I can why the heart says do a couple of matches at ODP, but the head thinks it's a bad idea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:06:26:17:54:17 by Oxfordwelsh.

Thanks Oxfordwelsh, you make your case very well and I do appreciate the efforts you and others local to the area are putting in to make things work. I do still maintain, however,that one match at ODP really wouldn't be a problem and would draw the two strands of support closer in the long term. Here's to a successful season anyway

I fall between two stools. It's a bit of an effort for me to get to Oxford yet I want you to stay as it's easier than Old Deer Park. Return to ODP and you've lost me, although I still think it's better for the club membership (not necessarily for the 'club') as the Old Guard can be relied on in the short term while the experimental push for the Premiership is still in it's infancy.

I've been to ODP as an opposition supporter and while it was nice to be at the clubhouse with the photos, the history and the atmosphere, the parking was limited as I think there was another event on in the area and my opinion of the ground was tainted by having a non-existent view of the pitch while stood on duckboards and getting pi$$ed wet through. All part of the LW experience maybe, but not great and not something to aspire to even as a Championship club....

It may be better now but I can't imagine there have been huge improvements.

And the committment to Oxford and the supporters there needs to be underwritten with a change of name, we can't be half pregnant. All sides can then move on with what we want to do with our loyalties.

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8+7
And the committment to Oxford and the supporters there needs to be underwritten with a change of name, we can't be half pregnant. All sides can then move on with what we want to do with our loyalties.

But why? Reading doesn't have a lot to do with London or Irish and that doesn't seem to matter... Personally, I think the LW brings in as many Oxford types at it puts off - becoming Oxford Exiles or whatever really would be a step too far; baby and bathwater (not that London/ODP etc are bathwater but you know what I mean - I don't think it NEEDS to be done so why do it?)

Being an Oxford local converted London Welsh fan I believe the name should stay the same.

Stay the same , I have Welsh born family members that came from Mid Wales/Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton as well as Oxford to watch London Welsh . I suspect if the name was changed they wouldn't come.

Will there still be a Welsh "flavour" to the club, other than in the name? I doubt it. At least at ODP you had the heritage and an underlying feeling of Welshness in the club house, Bowls club etc. My guess is that in a generation's time, they'll be asking, so why is the club called London Welsh again?

I'm not so sure it's not like the Irish where people around the world claim to be Irish.
The Welsh are proud to be Welsh but you don't get other people claiming to be welsh like the Irish, I think that means that predominatly the fanbase will always have a Welsh bias, that wasn't lost by being in London for years after it was compulsory to be Welsh to play. Irish were already losing their Irishness before they moved to Reading

What are you talking about?

I am out of the dustbin - must have been a recycling bin I guess - and I just cannot bear some of this nonsense.

LW is, and always has been, a LONDON club with a WELSH heritage. You want the Premiership status, you think that Oxford is a great catchment area but you don't think that Oxonians will support OW, and that LW is a better brand.

It is, it used to be ours and someone's pinched it.

Never said anything of the sort, Oxford has a decent Welsh population and it also has a decent population of rugby fans and small rugby clubs. If marketed properly they will come out and watch premiership rugby if the team is called Brian.
I went to my first LW match 35 years ago when I was 9 with my Great Uncle we made the trip down on the train most weekends until he really couldn't make it anymore, so I have some idea of ODP and all it stands for as I said if marketed properly people will come regardless of the name.

Understandably those left behind at ODP feel they have lost something and are nostaligic, for what they have lost, but it's only lost if you consider it so I made the trip down most weekends for 9 years and my uncle many before that, the club hasn't moved to Mars.
I love the fact that the club is London Welsh and would prefer they kept it but it wouldn't bother me if they didn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:06:28:08:20:56 by chappers.

I am an Oxford base fan and am very happy that the club should continue to be called London Welsh. Seems to me that this gives the best of all worlds - history remains intact with the name and us Oxford fans have a locally based club to support. Fine by me.

Shut me up if I'm wrong.
The club was founded on the principle of being a club for Welsh rugby players who had moved to London for work. The franchise that will exist in Oxford next season is not aimed at attracting those people who are a) based in London or b) Welsh.
Surely at that franchise you are more likely to attract supporters from Oxford and it's surrounds if you have Oxford in your name.
London Welsh should be in London and it's main aim should be to be a Welsh feeling "club" for Welsh players and supporters who have moved to London. If there are a set of money men who want to set up a premiership franchise in Oxford then good luck to them and I'm grateful for the support they are seemingly willing to lend to operations at ODP. However, I'm certain it would be more prudent for them in terms of gathering support, momentum and money to rebrand that franchise as Oxford _________.
The history doesn't remain in tact, as the whole point of the club is now irrelevant. i'm not against the move, and I understand the premise behind it, but let's call it what it is.

Fair point Nye and personally it wouldn't bother me. The Welsh premise of the club was officially lost a long time ago, but Welsh pride and maybe to some extent the name has kept it going amongst the supporters. I see no reason to drop the name, if marketed correctly LW can capitalise on the Welsh bit whilst making it attractive to those who want to come and watch good rugby.
I don't know what the level of non-Welsh support was at ODP, but I know of a fair few who have been going to the matches in Oxford, several of whom are buying season tickets next year if they ever get the chance.

As another Oxford based supporter I'd be appalled if they changed the name. I love that the club came to Oxford and love that it is a club so steeped in history. I don't want a soulless franchise club and I think there is more chance of attracting supporters to such a well known brand by leaving the name well alone.

What do you need for a soulless franchise club?
a) Wildly over-optimistically sized stadium
b) No real history in the area
c) No penetration in local media/ conversation
d) Limited on-field success
e) Total reliance on benefactors rather than paying support

Anything I've missed?

Don't get me wrong- there isn't enough support to finance a premiership (or championship for that matter) side at ODP either. There are a lot of clubs & Reejuns in v similar predicaments. The club's on-field lack of success can in no way be put down to lack of effort of commitment.

The history/ brand of London Welsh is irrelevant to the new Oxford Franchise, so why bother with the name? Why not make a clean break?

I think the split between 'new' (ie Oxford-based) and 'old' supporters last season was roughly 50:50. The 'old' supporters have followed the club through thick and thin, to places like Weston-Super-Mare, Midstone and North Walsham, and will continue to support London Welsh wherever they are. The 'new' supporters were, primarily, enticed by the prospect of Premiership rugby, and unless by some miracle the club has really worked hard to win their hearts over the last twelve months, many of them will drift away. If we alienate the 'traditional' London Welsh support by renaming the club then it will die on its @#$%&.

I may be doing the Oxford fans a disservice here, but I really don't understand the point of renaming the club. London Irish haven't done it; 'London' Wasps haven't done it; Sale don't do it every time they move to another district in Greater Manchester. This isn't a franchise. It's an old club which has a history of moving around, often from one year to the next.

Or is this more to do with the Amateurs reclaiming the moral high ground from their base at historic ODP...?

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Mark W-J

I may be doing the Oxford fans a disservice here, but I really don't understand the point of renaming the club.

There is not one single Oxford fan in the entire thread arguing for it.

Anyway, to adopt Rugby league as an analogy - Oxford RL are getting crowds of a couple of hundred from a standing start in semi-pro tier 3 (I know, I'm one of them - and I know a couple of other posters on here that are too) with a team that are pretty much bussed down from Oldham every week for matches. I'm actually quite hopeful given that that people aren't going to run away just because Welsh are playing champ rather than prem rugby. The alternative view would be that everyone was a "glory" supporter (pretty bleddy odd definition of glory on last season's showing), or that they were just there to see the opposition. At this stage, I'd prefer to be slightly more charitable....

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Oxfordwelsh

Quote:

Mark W-J

I may be doing the Oxford fans a disservice here, but I really don't understand the point of renaming the club.

There is not one single Oxford fan in the entire thread arguing for it.

Sorry, I meant doing the Oxford fans a disservice by suggesting that a) they were enticed primarily by Premiership rugby and b) the majority will disappear now we're back in the Championship.

Although you've put me in my place there, too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:06:28:15:02:40 by Mark W-J.

Fair enough - on those grounds I still think you might be though... Welsh won a lot of genuine new friends last season round here (and brought a few old ones that had relocated to Oxford crawling out of the woodwork). To be honest, I'm pretty hopeful.

Never underestimate the power of Oxford locals to take a visceral if highly parochial interest in what's happening either on the ring road or within it!

History is always intact , however it can get a bit blurred.

The LW professional team was born in an Amateur era and has become what it is , a team that gained entry to The Premiership and is now trying to get back .

From what I gathered at the LWSC AGM the Amateur and Professional management are speaking from the same hymn sheet to optimise the position that has arisen from the results of the past seasons.

Some posters seem to be suggesting that as the professional team plays at The Kassam Stadium in Oxford it should be renamed to distinguish / cast it loose it from ODP, this would in my view harm the whole . Both benefit from each other in many ways ....the Professional team gains from its historic root and the Amateurs have the pride and kudos that comes with being associated with a Professional team born in its midst that gives them access to top level coaching input etc.

A fine example of linked heritage working , is The London Irish Wild Geese (Sunbury),who with their strong links to London Irish (Sunbury/Reading) now play in National 2. Both benefiting from the common name and spin offs.

The Madjeski Stadium in Reading host/boasts the names and crests of Reading FC and London Irish RFC.

Well said X-Pat, succintly says what I have been trying to say.
there is no need to ditch the past to embrace the future.
I know of several people who came to see some premiership rugby last season and have decided to follow LW next season despite them playing in the championship, a couple are buying season tickets.Some may well not bother but I'm sure the genuine rugby fans will, it's by far the best standard of rugby we have in the area.
Our season in the premiership has raised LW's profile beyond recognition, you only have to look at all the other forums to see how often the subject of LW comes up.

That's a very coherent and sensible view of our position X Pat.

The great London Welsh teams of yore were based in London, and made up of Welsh based players. The London Welsh brand has great cache for a certain era, the JPR / JT / Merv era. London Irish not quite, though it did stand for something.

If the team isnt based in London, and isnt formed of welsh players or fans, then London Welsh isnt the right name. The name has to mean something to its fans. Newton Heath changed to Manchester United when the team moved.

I personally think that London Welsh should remain with the amateur team at ODP. The team in Oxford should be derived from it, play in red, and have links, but cant be London Welsh. Oxford Dragons anyone?

There are people within the club, who are LW through and through, they still have the same ethos, they just want to try and move the club on to the next level. nothing has changed just the location. You don't become English because you moved from Cardiff to live in Oxford you are still Welsh.
One thing has been made clear by the Board from the chairman down, there won't be a name change, they value the heritage of the club.

Hi, this is my first posting here.

I'm a new Oxford fan, went to quite a few games last year, and I expect to keep it up in the Championship.

As chappers as said so eloquently, it's really important for local Oxford people to feel that the club is in Oxford for the long haul. Moving training and admin here is just the start.

Even though I have Welsh heritage, I would prefer a name change to reflect the fact that the club is now an Oxford club. Leave the London Welsh name to the amateur club at ODP. Oxford Welsh, Oxford Dragons, or Oxford Taffs as I've been calling them since the move, I don't care.

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salmacis
Hi, this is my first posting here.
I'm a new Oxford fan, went to quite a few games last year, and I expect to keep it up in the Championship.

As chappers as said so eloquently, it's really important for local Oxford people to feel that the club is in Oxford for the long haul. Moving training and admin here is just the start.

Even though I have Welsh heritage, I would prefer a name change to reflect the fact that the club is now an Oxford club. Leave the London Welsh name to the amateur club at ODP. Oxford Welsh, Oxford Dragons, or Oxford Taffs as I've been calling them since the move, I don't care.

I still don't think it matters (the more so given the club have said it isn't happening) - good user name though. Mind you, remember what happened to Hermaphroditus at the fountains of Salmacis on Mount Ida, any changes risk the club being 6 of one, half a dozen of the other...

Was there an Oxford(shire) club interested in progressing up through the league system?

If so, they must be pretty aggrieved to have a Championship (aspirant Premiership) club pitch up in their backyard. Effectively denying them the chance to progress as other clubs have. It's a bit different to having a large club already on your doorstep to having one turn up and decide that it is going to exploit the local market.