What next for London Welsh ?


By Dragons Den
March 2 2015

After another humiliating defeat by London Irish on Saturday meaning almost certain relegation,and with a a shake up of the Premiership looming on the horizon, where does that leave London Welsh ?

With the season all but over barring a miracle of biblical proportions, where will London Welsh find themselves within the hierarchy of professional rugby?

After recent announcements in the press regarding an expansion of the Premier League followed by a possible locking of the relegation trap door, where will London Welsh find themselves in the next couple of years ?

With regards to the expanded ring fenced Premiership I don't think it's any secret as to who PRL and the RFU want in their expanded cartel and whilst Bristol and Worcester may on paper have the credentials on and off the pitch, just how are they going to justify the parchuting in of a team such as Yorkshire Carnegie, who this season have even fallen so short in the Championship. Whilst it could also be said that even Bristol and Worcester have yet to prove themselves capable of escaping the clutches of that league, despite all three of those clubs still benfitting from PRL funding in excess of that awarded to London Welsh.

By their own admission Yorkshire Carnegie have been coached by The RFU in regards to their planned endeavours to return to the top flight and sitting on a £5m nest egg from the sale of their P shares to Exeter , will they be further coached on how best to spend that money, to fullfil whatever criterea PRL and the RFU lay down as condition to entry to the revised top flight.

Many will say that London Welsh are just moaning due to their lack of success on the pitch this season, but what many fail to realise is that in the background the club have themselves advocated an expanded Premier League with an automatic promotion from The Championship, on merit, and the scrapping of the play-offs, but more importantly a better funded championship and a level playing field for the promoted side, once promoted.

Unfortunately London Welsh don't conform to the PRL and the RFU's vision of a top flight professional rugby club, who appear to have lost sight of the right of a club to create it's own identity and run itself how it sees fit, rather than being assimilated into the single organism they would like the Premier League to be, whereby a group of clones all work together for the benefit of the host.

They use the rational that a better Premier League will contribute to a better team England and whilst there is nothing wrong with that on a basic level this aim is not bourne out of the vanity for the qudos of being the best, but driven by commercial interests and the desire for greater revenue. It appears that they have long since lost sight of the fact that rugby is a competitive sport based upon the field of play and that greater reward should be given for that success, rather than who turns up in the best fancy dress.

It begs the question as to how many other clubs just took their unfair criteria as gospel, until London Welsh came along and challenged them, and based upon that just rolled over and gave up on their ambition.

Many are of the opinion that London Welsh should also just do that and put up with their lot, but we have on board some who are more shrewd than that and who haven't shied away from challenging the establishment, and if the recent press is anything to go by there appears to be a growning number of supporters to this way of thinking.

However the question remains, will PRL and the RFU just use the renewal of their agreement as a way of restructuring their criteria in a much safer legal manner, thus sidestepping the issues brought up by London Welsh and in effect locking them out.

How do you think these proposals will affect rugby as a whole, but more importantly London Welsh as a club ?

What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: The Dragons' Den (IP Logged)
Date: 02/03/2015 15:33

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Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: Rinkadink (IP Logged)
Date: 02/03/2015 16:52

Administration, maybe?

Return to ODP would be wise IMHO. Was a great ground to visit and the supporters much more pleasant. Rebuild from there.

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: Tiny George (IP Logged)
Date: 02/03/2015 17:08

As an adopted Brizzler living in London I'd love to see LW back at ODP and consolidating.

I'd happily attend a few matched to help boost the numbers as I've enjoyed my visits to ODP even when LW won.

I suspect that ring fencing per se won't be brought in, simply because it could result in lengthy legal challenges, however I do believe that stringent rules around sustainable business models will be brought in alongsode and expanded Premiership and this is where I fear LW will fall foul and not be included within that expanded Premiership.

The powers that be would like another Northern representative and so I'd expect Leeds to be involved, alongside Briss and Wuss initially.

Good luck for the rest of the season by the way.

TG

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: chappers (IP Logged)
Date: 02/03/2015 18:23

That's very romantic and yes the clubhouse atmosphere at ODP is great, but it's barely suitable for Championship rugby, no lighting, no chance to expand facilities etc, a poor pitch that is susceptible to flooding and freezing. Just doesn't fit with the clubs ambitions, which are neither yours or mine to decide.

So we just parachute in a team because they have all the bells and whistles regardless of their ability to compete, oh hang on it won't matter because there will be nothing to compete for.
I know it's an old argument but none the less valid, half of the teams half way through the season will have nothing to compete for as I can't see anyone throwing resources at 7th place.

I suspect that initially there will be an upturn in the standards of the bottom few but over time with nothing to play for the league will just be further divided between the haves and the have nots, with a boot money championship just being cut adrift , with little chance of improvement.

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 08:40

What has happened to the pitch at ODP? It used to be one of the best playing surfaces in the business, and although you say it's susceptible to flooding it's actually laid on eight feet of sand, so drainage has never been an issue (except that one thunderstorm v Moseley a few years back). Is it just that the professional squad are using the main pitch for scrummaging practice all week long so that it's cutting up more, instead of it only being used for 1st XV matches?

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: chappers (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 09:03

That's fair enough but it certainly isn't the pitch it was and maybe you are right about it getting a constant hammering. When I came down the other week there was a decent sized puddle in the middle.

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: Dick Godfrey (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 09:28

First, I must explain that I am a Falcons fan. We know about relegation. It was the best thging to happen to us, forcing us to re-group and try to build a sustainable club.

My preference is for the fence to be built below the Championship. Sort out the money (inc getting rid of parachute payment) to give us two, adequately funded, fully pro divisions. Promotion/relegation by play-off between bottom of Prem and top of Champ. Ambitious Nat One clubs who fancy a crack at being fully pro would need to meet strict criteria and would be assessed by a panel with represenbtatives of PRL and RFU.

I hve another (bizarre) suggestion to provide something to play for throughout Prem season. For the final six (or seven) games, sides finishing in the bottom six will ge given two Wild Cards. Playing a card will mean the game chosen will offer 5 points (Plus possible bonuses) for a win. Clubs will clearly have to select games wisely. But it would mean that a club in the bottom half could leap up into. the top half with the lure of top level Euro competition.
Any takers?

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: garrob66 (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 09:33

ODP is probably the best option, depending on whether we can get away from the Kassam somehow. If you remember we did have a temporary stand over the cricket ground 3 years ago. Not sure if the same could happen over the tennis courts, it might be possible, if necessary. Presumably the Kew end will still be the gym or the pre-match marquee.
The time is right for the RFU to stop us trying to go back up and spoiling the Premiership image. Go back to being semi-pro and watch the 1st XV win

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: LWFan (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 10:20

Let's compare the training facilities the professional team have at their disposal at ODP to other teams in the Premiership - you can't!! A gym in a tent and a pitch used by a couple of hundred mini and juniors each weekend, the women's team plus the Amateurs. What other Prem team has training facilities like that? I'm not saying that the pitch should only be used by the prof. team - far from it. My point is that if you want to compete at the top level, make sure the training facilities are up to scratch.They shouldn't be having to use other club's facilities when it rains or it's cold because ODP isn't usable. It's just another disadvantage that they've got to put up with.
The big issue is, do you keep training at ODP and invest in the current facilities so that all teams benefit, or move lock stock to Oxford?

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: Dafydd (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 12:30

Oxford has not worked and I believe it never will, improvements could be made to ODP to ensure it is acceptable at Championship level after all it was acceptable before.

Training facilities do not have to be at ODP, Quins train at Surrey Sports Park just down the A3. I feel sorry for the management that it has not worked and I sincerely hope that not too much more hard earned cash from our benefactor is lost. Championship Rugby at Kassam is not a big crowd puller so considerations will have to be made whether or not that is ODP or indeed somewhere else.

I've heard that there is 2 years, 1 year and no years left on the Kassam lease, any of this information could be correct and there may of course have been options within the contract in consideration of relegation, since this was a possibility and for which I am certain we would have secured decent legal advice.

We are a small club outside of the elite, originally for Welsh folks in London, there is an identity issue.

London Irish (who rumour has it wish to return to London) have overcome this marketing conundrum but I think their brand is easier to sell than ours, after all it is all about bums on seats not just for tickets but for the merchandise too which LI peddle very well.

No easy answers, personally I prefer how the club was and I dislike Kassam but whatever path is taken I will continue my support, I just cannot see that the future will ever be Oxford.

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: chappers (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 13:27

Without going over the old ODP V Oxford thing again. I could see a return to ODP potentially being the start of a slippery slope.

If we can't improve our lot there then where would that leave us.
You say that we managed in the championship there before, and that may well be true, but what happens if the championship progresses to a level more akin to the current premiership. We would still be left at ODP with inadequate facilities, just stagnant waiting for those behind to overtake us.

I just don't see the point of just trying to do well in the championship, the only reward there is promotion to the premiership, maintaining a top 4 place there has cost LW approximately £1.4m per year.
If it's a social club you want may as well just play even further down the tiers.
Like wise if the championship gets funded properly and the club have ambition to move forward I don't think ODP with it's lack of facilities is the place to be caught at.

We are currently in the second year of a three year deal at the Kassam I think we should hold our nerve see what transpires both on and off the pitch over the next year or so before making rash decisions.
I would have thought that would be the boards idea too, with Bleddyn exerting whatever pressure he can from within whilst he is on the PRL board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:03:03:13:30:16 by chappers.

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: welshbuz (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 14:37

This won't be popular and I will probably be hounded off the board for saying it, but one of the reasons it is failing to work in Oxford is that every time we lose a match or things don't go our way there are the tired calls to go back to ODP. Why would any potential supporter invest in buying tickets and following a club that give the impression they are passing through and no-one really wants to be there?

I really do get that it is London Welsh and that is the home of the club, but I don't think it is the place to home a fully professional outfit in this day and age. Keep the spirit of the club and ties with the amateurs, mini etc but before you can establish a fan base the club needs to decide what it is - a professional club in Oxford or a recreational side to entertain the locals of SW London.

I get that the Kassam can seem a bit soulless but we as fans have as much of a duty to fill that void as the club do. Creating a lively atmosphere that welcomes new fans will get them back the next time. The playoff games last year were brilliant for atmosphere. Recreate that and we'll do well.

Also, don't underestimate the work being put into developing links with local schools and clubs. These are engaging youngsters for the future. If we are going to keep this short term focus on finding another home every time we fail to pull a 10k crowd then the community & marketing teams may as well pack up now. There is a World Cup this year and the groundwork of getting people aware of the club could pay dividends with a good tournament.

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: Verd (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 16:27

You are not going to get hounded off the board. Not by me anyway. What you say is correct as far as I am concerned. ODP was/is lovely, but is not viable if the club has aspirations. Sure we all have great memories but that is in the past. Getting a bit bored with the argument now. One side is all about emotion. The other is about logic & reality. What I don't get is if you love ODP so much you can still watch rugby there & enjoy the clubhouse & atmosphere. You only have to go to Kassam if you want to watch the 1st XV who are a professional team competing in a professional environment which has certain requirements not possible at ODP.

As I said (dons flak jacket & tin hat) it is getting boring now. When it comes down to it we all may have an opinion (our right), but the only people who will actually make the decision are those who not only love the club & its history but also have personally bankrolled the club for some years (their right).

Re: What next for London Welsh ?
Posted by: welshbuz (IP Logged)
Date: 03/03/2015 22:13

Glad to hear some sensible thoughts there Verd.

I think the main thing I was trying to say is that it is this "boring" debate and infighting that is putting people off coming.

I absolutely respect people have a right to an opinion but when it is trotted out over and over it can be offputting. As a casual observer I think I'd take one look at the league table, another at the message board saying "we want to go back to London" and think "stuff that, why bother?" The cinema is far more appealing on a cold Sunday afternoon.

Me, I'm dragging the whole family along every home game, but just trying to look at it from other people's perspective.

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