Saints v London Irish (Prem Cup)- Teams Up

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:19:09:03:27 by Saint Ted.

Well, if nothing else a chance to get a first look at some of these guys, and a chance for them to show what they can do.

Excited to see how some of the youngsters perform. Interesting to see Grayson on the wing and Litchfield at centre. He had a torrid time against Tigers and played there in one of the England U20s games and looked out of place, so it'll be nice to see him get a chance to impress in his preferred position.

I really like the fact that Coles is captain. He's going from strength to strength and whilst it might be a little early to say this, I think in him we might have found an excellent replacement for when Courtney eventually retires (hopefully not for a few seasons yet).

all 3 backrowers play lock, serious lineout options

It’s good to see some of our youngsters getting game time and having an opportunity to impress but who has Danny Hobbs upset?

God forbid we’ve another Nobby and Hilly situation developing but he only features at Bedford, often sharing the shirt with Manny, and he doesn’t feature on the injured lists.

I’d have thought this game would have seen him and Manny get game time rather than risking MacAuterac

Good luck young fellas on becoming Saints. When you are given your number, you join a selected few who have represented this club over nearly 150 years. As that number approaches 2050, whilst it seems large, that doesn’t even get close to filling any one of our stands…. That’s how unique and special you become.

Before you we’ve had legends of the game don our colours. Before you, we have had legendary people (Mr Mobbs et al). May your time at Saints become legendary.

Nice to see a Hendy starting, even if we're not related.

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Saint.Kenneth
Good luck young fellas on becoming Saints. When you are given your number, you join a selected few who have represented this club over nearly 150 years. As that number approaches 2050, whilst it seems large, that doesn’t even get close to filling any one of our stands…. That’s how unique and special you become.
Before you we’ve had legends of the game don our colours. Before you, we have had legendary people (Mr Mobbs et al). May your time at Saints become legendary.

Nice post Saint.Kenneth

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Longers

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Saint.Kenneth
Good luck young fellas on becoming Saints. When you are given your number, you join a selected few who have represented this club over nearly 150 years. As that number approaches 2050, whilst it seems large, that doesn’t even get close to filling any one of our stands…. That’s how unique and special you become.
Before you we’ve had legends of the game don our colours. Before you, we have had legendary people (Mr Mobbs et al). May your time at Saints become legendary.

Nice post Saint.Kenneth

+ 1

Some of these guys will be living on nerves to the point of being sick before the game

If it means so much to them to wear the colours it should mean a lot to us

Excellently said St Kenneth.

That we may see the next Saint's legend making his first appearance today is something special to appreciate.

Soft underbelly being given a good old tickle so far! Should have scored first early doors but Litchfield cut back inside rather than diving for the corner. 0-19 with 27 mins gone and nothing going our way.

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Saint.Kenneth
Good luck young fellas on becoming Saints. When you are given your number, you join a selected few who have represented this club over nearly 150 years. As that number approaches 2050, whilst it seems large, that doesn’t even get close to filling any one of our stands…. That’s how unique and special you become.
Before you we’ve had legends of the game don our colours. Before you, we have had legendary people (Mr Mobbs et al). May your time at Saints become legendary.

Quality post and a great sentiment.

Well not the result we would have wanted or expected. Some good performances from the youngsters but we really struggled for cohesion and control. I am genuinely concerned that James Grayson lacks the necessary capability to be our first choice ten. He made some very rash choices early on, and then seemed to be below par for the remainder of the game as if carrying an injury. Hutch was guilty of trying to overplay things and some of our passing was poor, too early, not committing the defence, or slightly behind the receiver, checking momentum. As a consequence we threw the ball around a lot but were too lateral. There was a lot of effort with ball in hand from the forwards but we couldn’t suck in the LI defence. They on the other hand seemed to be able to do that quite easily and as a consequence created space to score out wide easily. I think we also struggled as a result of our selection of three locks in the back row. We had more jumpers than lifters so failed to challenge their line out and struggled to secure our throw! The lack of a breakdown specialist also handed the initiative to LI in open play, we couldn’t secure the quick ball we wanted yet often they could.
Irish looked a well drilled side and they played well as a team so credit where credit is due, but Saints were poor collectively and looked in desperate need of someone who could impose some sort of control and execute the game plan.

One thing to consider. Irish have arranged 2 A games against Saracens. This will be the first time this team have played together and the first game in a long time for some of them.

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Sir Hector
There was a lot of effort with ball in hand from the forwards but we couldn’t suck in the LI defence. They on the other hand seemed to be able to do that quite easily and as a consequence created space to score out wide easily. I think we also struggled as a result of our selection of three locks in the back row. We had more jumpers than lifters so failed to challenge their line out and struggled to secure our throw! The lack of a breakdown specialist also handed the initiative to LI in open play, we couldn’t secure the quick ball we wanted yet often they could.
Irish looked a well drilled side and they played well as a team so credit where credit is due, but Saints were poor collectively and looked in desperate need of someone who could impose some sort of control and execute the game plan.

Les Kiss, awesome coach for a rock solid defence.

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Saintly Pursuit
One thing to consider. Irish have arranged 2 A games against Saracens. This will be the first time this team have played together and the first game in a long time for some of them.

Just then makes you wonder then why theA team league cannot go ahead this season if teams are arranging A games separately.
Obviously there are risks associated with playing more games but unless these guys are getting full contact real game time more than one or two games a season they won’t see any real progression.

Really interested to know how a few players got on:
Nansen
Sylvester
Litchfield
Hendy
Garside

Always very painful when a game is all but over by half time. Conceding on the stroke of half time was criminal socially as we were in possession deep inside the opposition half with less that 4 minutes to go. The basics are really hurting us week after week.

As for performances my pick would be Tom Lockett coming off the bench. I don’t think anyone else really stood out. Injury to Sylvester and a HIA and no return to the field for Nansen.

We have to get back to winning ways some how. Quins next game has to be targeted to get that mentality back. Otherwise it could be a hard slog we are 1 from 5 now and we do have Bath on the horizon but I see that as the only one in the next 10 that I would be fairly confident, although it is a way.

Time for the coaches and players to step up.

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Sir Hector
Well not the result we would have wanted or expected. Some good performances from the youngsters but we really struggled for cohesion and control. I am genuinely concerned that James Grayson lacks the necessary capability to be our first choice ten. He made some very rash choices early on, and then seemed to be below par for the remainder of the game as if carrying an injury. Hutch was guilty of trying to overplay things and some of our passing was poor, too early, not committing the defence, or slightly behind the receiver, checking momentum. As a consequence we threw the ball around a lot but were too lateral. There was a lot of effort with ball in hand from the forwards but we couldn’t suck in the LI defence. They on the other hand seemed to be able to do that quite easily and as a consequence created space to score out wide easily. I think we also struggled as a result of our selection of three locks in the back row. We had more jumpers than lifters so failed to challenge their line out and struggled to secure our throw! The lack of a breakdown specialist also handed the initiative to LI in open play, we couldn’t secure the quick ball we wanted yet often they could.
Irish looked a well drilled side and they played well as a team so credit where credit is due, but Saints were poor collectively and looked in desperate need of someone who could impose some sort of control and execute the game plan.

That is a pretty complete assesment IMHO. 10/10.

It's good to give new players a game but we seem to mirror the first XV with basic errors, penalties etc. That smacks of coaching inadequacies to me.

It felt a bit like men versus boys.They were well drilled.. snuffed-out our attacks and scored at will (at 19 mins it was a point a minute)

Interesting spread of comments. Can only take what I heard from the commentary of Grqaham and Lennie on local radio.

First twenty minutes, I took it that one or two individuals passed when they really should have backed themselves. Nerves maybe? JG well out of sorts. Trying too hard?

Then LI had an epiphany and scored those three tries and it seemed to wake us up. Only to go straight back to sleep.

Second half seemed to suggest we had a chance, but then LI looked at the team sheet and remembered they were supposed to win.

I was encouraged by the positive comments of one or two of the youngsters. Wilkins seems to have settled in and can challenge.

JG has a problem. And if he has a problem, we have a problem, as there is no other sensible choice behind Dan. Don't bother wheeling out the Hutch/Francis/Furbank arguments - please. None of them are Premiership Fly Halves. I wonder what Sam Vestey is doing with him in the background on a one to one?

I'm still concerned about an apparent lack of "style" running through the club. We should be able to slot players into a system and see them operate. I did not get that impression from the commentary.

But as I said, all this is taken from my interpretation of the commentary. So may be way out!

Are there any highlights? I just checked Youtube and Saints TV and nothing on those sites yet.

Whilst it might make for painful viewing from what has been said above I'd still be interested to see how some of the youngsters look like Hendy, Sylvester etc

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Saint Gordo
Really interested to know how a few players got on:
Nansen
Sylvester
Litchfield
Hendy
Garside

Nansen is a solid lad who offered to carry from first receiver repeatedly. He hits hard in contact but without a proper 7 we couldn’t take advantage of the meters gained and recycle. Thus his efforts made less impact than we’d have liked. He lost the ball in contact a couple of times and took a knock too. Not sure how much he contributes to the line out.
Sylvester was lively and got around the park, he tackled and popped up in the wide channels and made yards too. But he’s a tall lad and not a breakdown specialist. He looks handy and it’s not his fault the balance of the back row was wrong.
Lichfield looks a classy option, punches above his weight, has good hands and feet and looked lively but got closed down by the LI defence too well generally. His try was made by a great pass that he accelerated on to and beat the cover on the outside.
Hendy looked very comfortable on debut, he didn’t play the classic full back role as Grayson J and Hutch provided the bulk of the back field cover, but he pouched a couple of catches and looked threatening with ball in hand. He also got stuck in at the breakdown and tackled well too. We did catch one glimpse of pace and he controlled the ball well for his try.
Garside had a steady game, the scrummage looked solid but it should with five locks in the pack. The line out was a bit indifferent but it was very much an untested unit. He was involved in defence and I don’t recall any obvious blots on his copybook.

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Saint Maul
Are there any highlights? I just checked Youtube and Saints TV and nothing on those sites yet.
Whilst it might make for painful viewing from what has been said above I'd still be interested to see how some of the youngsters look like Hendy, Sylvester etc

Well to be honest, I think there darn well should be! The club would have videoed the game, I bet, at the very least. There was some good stuff from Saints, so won't be all bad!

But I am concerned that we're not taking it as seriously for the non-attendees - from the club - as we should. Not even the text match report live. Poor show, I thought.

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Longers

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Saint Maul
Are there any highlights? I just checked Youtube and Saints TV and nothing on those sites yet.
Whilst it might make for painful viewing from what has been said above I'd still be interested to see how some of the youngsters look like Hendy, Sylvester etc

Well to be honest, I think there darn well should be! The club would have videoed the game, I bet, at the very least. There was some good stuff from Saints, so won't be all bad!

But I am concerned that we're not taking it as seriously for the non-attendees - from the club - as we should. Not even the text match report live. Poor show, I thought.

I watched the live text feed from the sainst site.

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SaintsAsh

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Longers

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Saint Maul
Are there any highlights? I just checked Youtube and Saints TV and nothing on those sites yet.
Whilst it might make for painful viewing from what has been said above I'd still be interested to see how some of the youngsters look like Hendy, Sylvester etc

Well to be honest, I think there darn well should be! The club would have videoed the game, I bet, at the very least. There was some good stuff from Saints, so won't be all bad!

But I am concerned that we're not taking it as seriously for the non-attendees - from the club - as we should. Not even the text match report live. Poor show, I thought.

I watched the live text feed from the sainst site.

Then I am really past hope! I couldn't find it!!

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Longers

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SaintsAsh

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Longers

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Saint Maul
Are there any highlights? I just checked Youtube and Saints TV and nothing on those sites yet.
Whilst it might make for painful viewing from what has been said above I'd still be interested to see how some of the youngsters look like Hendy, Sylvester etc

Well to be honest, I think there darn well should be! The club would have videoed the game, I bet, at the very least. There was some good stuff from Saints, so won't be all bad!

But I am concerned that we're not taking it as seriously for the non-attendees - from the club - as we should. Not even the text match report live. Poor show, I thought.

I watched the live text feed from the sainst site.

Then I am really past hope! I couldn't find it!!

I found it but radio Northampton was dribbling on about football but then again that might have been the positive For the afternoon.

Raised the issue of JG about 18-months ago on here and was heavily criticised, for me personally, I don't see him as a starting 10 of a prem team anytime soon and that really is concerning when you see other teams with decent backup 10s who are quite a bit better than JG (Allan at Quins, Burns @ Tigers, MacGinty soon to be Bristol etc).

I hope we correct this issue and sign an experienced backup 10 and let JG out on loan.

I know Boyd likes to bring through rather than bring in so presumably he either thinks that JG can be up to standard but has some fixable issue holding him back, or sees Furbank as the future 10 or there's someone else?

Well it depends on the clubs ethos. Do we want to bring players on or buy em in. If bring them on stick with Grayson.

I would suggest that if we are going to try and outbuy other clubs, then we are behind Quins, Tigers, Bath,
Saracens, Wasps, Sale and Bristol. So top 8 would be outperforming those not in that group. if we are going to develope then we are probably behind Chiefs, Saracens and Irish in doing it better.

I think the board understand this and are realistic. The only way we can go is the academy as we don't have the financial clout to outperform sone clubs, yes there is a cap, but there is so much more to it than that.

Personally I hope Dan B renews his contract for another 3 years.
While it's commendable and a badge of merit to grow your own players, there must also be the hardegded reality if a player is not improving to the required level. There are a good few 10s that may well have tilted past their prime who would be prepared to share the workload and wouldnt cost a fortune.

Saints made £2.6 million post tax profits over the past three years, admittedly front loaded, can we stop with the financially downbeat posts, it's taking over from the 'young team' mantra.

I do wonder how Boyd views JG, the elevation of Furbank and others to play 10 when JG has been fit doesnt provide a ringing endorsement, would Quinns leave Smith out in similar circumstances.

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SaintsAsh
Well it depends on the clubs ethos. Do we want to bring players on or buy em in. If bring them on stick with Grayson.
I would suggest that if we are going to try and outbuy other clubs, then we are behind Quins, Tigers, Bath,
Saracens, Wasps, Sale and Bristol. So top 8 would be outperforming those not in that group. if we are going to develope then we are probably behind Chiefs, Saracens and Irish in doing it better.

I think the board understand this and are realistic. The only way we can go is the academy as we don't have the financial clout to outperform sone clubs, yes there is a cap, but there is so much more to it than that.

Don't buy this talk of 'lacking finances'. We've had some super star players over the years; North, Corbisero, Fotuli' Picamoles, Biggar, Foden, Hartley, Lawes etc, we have the cash for a decent backup 10 or as with Biggar, a world-class 10. It is quite clear that this is becoming an area(fly half) we need to plug externally imo.
We have recruited fairly poorly over the last 2/3 years with the exception probably of this season where recruitment has been improved. Lets hope we can re-shape the model and have less B/C players. Quality not quantity.

Some ;posters don't seem to realise that the cup games are on premiership tv just like the league matches

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saint krige

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SaintsAsh
Well it depends on the clubs ethos. Do we want to bring players on or buy em in. If bring them on stick with Grayson.
I would suggest that if we are going to try and outbuy other clubs, then we are behind Quins, Tigers, Bath,
Saracens, Wasps, Sale and Bristol. So top 8 would be outperforming those not in that group. if we are going to develope then we are probably behind Chiefs, Saracens and Irish in doing it better.

I think the board understand this and are realistic. The only way we can go is the academy as we don't have the financial clout to outperform sone clubs, yes there is a cap, but there is so much more to it than that.

Don't buy this talk of 'lacking finances'. We've had some super star players over the years; North, Corbisero, Fotuli' Picamoles, Biggar, Foden, Hartley, Lawes etc, we have the cash for a decent backup 10 or as with Biggar, a world-class 10. It is quite clear that this is becoming an area(fly half) we need to plug externally imo.
We have recruited fairly poorly over the last 2/3 years with the exception probably of this season where recruitment has been improved. Lets hope we can re-shape the model and have less B/C players. Quality not quantity.

The market moves on, we now have players on 1 million a year that did not exist then. We now have two marquee's and some teams now have mega training facilities and perks that we don't have. Do we try and compete what we cant compete with or try and grow our own. Growing your own produces more loyalty and is cheaper, but this way you will get times when you have players like Lawes and times you don't. Chiefs had a crop grow up together just like Manchester united did in wendyball. We all make it out that we have the answers, and that is easy to do on social media. Making it happen in reality when 12 other teams are trying to do the same with 7 of them having more money than you is another thing entirely.

Well, I think a blend of both is the best option? To rely purely on homegrown would be tremendously costly in itself, people come to watch the worlds best players so they are an investment on their own merit.

Such a pivotal position like FH really needs someone who is up to the job as it can determine a win or less more than other positions (arguable), if academy players aren't up to it then obviously you have to look elsewhere.

I personally think we have far too many average players where we'd be better off, offloading some and buying some class 'A' players.

We’re back to having one marquee player and the salary cap is reduced.

Unfortunately we need to recruit in some of the most expensive areas, front row and possibly fly half.

Given restrictions, we won’t fill them all.

Since Boyd we've had Brussouw, Hartley, Franks leave who I imagine were on big pays, I don't see that these have been replaced like-for like?

If we're up to the cap or thereabouts as Darbon has alluded to, we've spent poorly.

We have less cap.

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Deesaint
Personally I hope Dan B renews his contract for another 3 years.
While it's commendable and a badge of merit to grow your own players, there must also be the hardegded reality if a player is not improving to the required level. There are a good few 10s that may well have tilted past their prime who would be prepared to share the workload and wouldnt cost a fortune.

Saints made £2.6 million post tax profits over the past three years, admittedly front loaded, can we stop with the financially downbeat posts, it's taking over from the 'young team' mantra.

I do wonder how Boyd views JG, the elevation of Furbank and others to play 10 when JG has been fit doesnt provide a ringing endorsement, would Quinns leave Smith out in similar circumstances.

For the money I think I would prefer someone who is available for all the games and who doesn’t get banged up playing international games which are more physically demanding and mentally draining.

It also depends on who is going to coach and what style they will play. As I said before I think Dan, great player and servant as he is, is wasted with Boyd rugby. You need a running attacking 10 not a pragmatist kicker.

If it’s Boyd style rugby led by Vesty or similar then it needs to be big money on McKenzie, Barrett (both in NZ squad but not probably in the gun starting team) or Cooper or similar. If it’s a more NH style side then players like Johan Goosen, Otere Black, Bryn Gatland all deserve a look. That’s just top of the head ideas, proper scouts and agents would create a solid list of potentials I’m sure. Big money on a player in a key position who isn’t with the club 100% of the time is a very poor allocation of the cap IMHO.

Thats the same for everyone, Ted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:16:20:27:17 by saint krige.

Club is nowwhere near cap. Darbon runs the club frugally and said himself signed best stadium deal. Squad is thin on senior players



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:16:20:40:48 by Rugbyman01.

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saint krige
Thats the same for everyone, Ted.

Yes, I’m quite aware, but you’ve said we haven’t replaced x,y,z….

No we haven’t. Because we have promoted a lot of academy players and have less cap to spend and have had to bring one marquee into the cap.

Reading between the lines of what Boyd said I think we probably have a couple of players who are not good value for money at the minute.

You can’t just off load players either if they are in contract as unless it’s bought out, it’s still in the cap

But typically new players coming in will also be on less money, so doesn't really stand as to why the higher paid leavers haven't been replaced. As I said, most teams have two decent 10s, we don't and it really hurts us.

Maybe our coaches aren't up to it, or the players aren't, but I don't see us spending much less than current title holders Quins for example. Just getting less success.

COVID aside we're pretty sound financially but not up there with those who have big money backers, I'd guess firm mid-table in that regard.

There is also a decent chunk of luck - taking Quins they arguably had international players no longer required by EJ (Care, Brown), players likely warranting a call up/more use by England earlier (Smith, Dombrant) as well as Marler taking himself out of international tours so available for them. That all factors into the value you get from players - by contrast we've got two nailed on internationals in Biggs and Courts plus some of the islanders (play less international fixtures) but then quite a few who have been in and out of training camps so missed by us for big chunks of the last couple of seasons.

None of the above means that the squad selection/management is perfect or there aren't poor value players in there for other reasons but it does play a role.

Quins were pretty awful for the first half of last season. Getting rid of the DOR was what really turned them around or at the very least coincided with their change in fortunes.

Exactly the same group of players just as Wasps did the year before.

Where's the Welsh fly half production line when you need it to free up Dan just to play club rugby.....

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ajack
Quins were pretty awful for the first half of last season. Getting rid of the DOR was what really turned them around or at the very least coincided with their change in fortunes.
Exactly the same group of players just as Wasps did the year before.

I don’t know who is available now and personally I give coaches until the end of the season unless it’s relegation panic.

But you touch on something incredibly important. Fans of all sports and directors of all sports clubs over emphasise players and under value coaches. IMHO it is everything.