Saints v London Irish (Prem Cup Semi Final) Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:17:08:22:33 by Saint Ted.

Does this game count as a suspension for Lukhan and Fraser? If so surely it would warrant a separate classification.

It does, I don’t understand what’s meant by different classification?

I presume classed as 'Suspended' rather than 'Not Considered for selection'.

So as they are suspended, not considered for selection then?

I don’t know, I just copy it from saints, it used to have in brackets next to the player name why but it’s been abandoned this season and to be honest I just copy that bit of text, 9 times out of 10 I get to game day before it’s even occurred to me to look at the team despite doing a bunch of formatting of it the day before, when I do it, it’s just text in boxes!

On paper looks a team capable of winning. Lets hope they play pragmatic cup knock out rugby if needed.

Biscuit wise I am a Lemon Puff person

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Dave Jackson
On paper looks a team capable of winning. Lets hope they play pragmatic cup knock out rugby if needed.

Do they still make lemon puffs?

I couldn't even find water biscuits in Sainsbury's last week

You set my taste buds off so searched Sainsburys, Tesco, Waitrose and Co-op. Eventually found Bolands Lemon Puffs on Amazon at 12.99 for 2.5 kilos. So yes they still make Lemon Puffs but you really need to like them a lot to buy them from Amazon... COME ON YOU SAINTS!!!

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195Rich
You set my taste buds off so searched Sainsburys, Tesco, Waitrose and Co-op. Eventually found Bolands Lemon Puffs on Amazon at 12.99 for 2.5 kilos. So yes they still make Lemon Puffs but you really need to like them a lot to buy them from Amazon... COME ON YOU SAINTS!!!

Tesco still sell them in the foreign foods aisle imported from Romania

Which biscuits do you take to the disciplinary hearing these days to get a week knocked off?

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LeicesterSaint
Which biscuits do you take to the disciplinary hearing these days to get a week knocked off?

Chocolate Hobnobs.

+1

Think Owen took a tin of Fox's luxury Biscuits

Impressed so far with Sara Cox, clear loud and consistent with her decisions.

Ollie going off a bit worrying

We can win this.

Scrums look a bit creaky to say the least. Backs look good going forward but Irish probably had the best of the first half.
Sleightholme is turning into a cracking player, shame we’ve lost him to a HIA.
Excited to see what Hendy can do in the second half

Out attacking lineout is woeful, got to be the worst in the league by some distance, on the odd occasion we do actually win the ball we get wrapped up in the maul and turned over. Set piece has been our undoing tonight

Very sad to say but the replacement hooker Callum Burns has potentially cost us a final. Clearly injured and not in a position to carry on but too proud to come off. Ensuing lineout is not straight and he goes off injured, really poor.
That said, we’ve had enough chances but haven’t taken them plus some questionable breakdown decisions haven’t helped

That pass was miles forward for their try wasn't it?

Scrums and lineouts appalling.

Good to see James form and Tom James good as usual.

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TimperleySaint
That pass was miles forward for their try wasn't it?

It was - clearly.

But honestly without a scrum we will not win. Same as always.

There’s either something wrong with the camera angles or a fair few forward passes have been missed.

Blaming one very young player for the loss of the game is pretty rubbish

I would say we couldn’t scrum despite Ferguson being in charge

We are just missing that little bit of magic
Some good solid players
But no game winners

Jesus wept, blatant high tackle on Collins, not even checked albeit it would have not made a difference.
And when we had the 5m maul going forwards early in second half, could easily have been a yellow card for the Irish player who brought it down.
Frustrating, feels like a big missed opportunity, charge down try, missed chances.
Disappointing

Chris Boyd take a bow - your legacy lives on! If you can’t scrummage and constantly cough up line out ball you will simply not win Rugby games.

I thought the ref was very good

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TunbridgeSaint
Very sad to say but the replacement hooker Callum Burns has potentially cost us a final. Clearly injured and not in a position to carry on but too proud to come off. Ensuing lineout is not straight and he goes off injured, really poor.
That said, we’ve had enough chances but haven’t taken them plus some questionable breakdown decisions haven’t helped

Go find a mirror, then have a word with the guy you see there. Blaming one person in a squad of 23 is not just low it is silly. ( I was thinking more than that but Saint Ted might get annoyed)

How many penalties from our front row?

How many lineouts before CB came on at hooker did we mess up?

Poor performance from a poor squad and poor coaches.

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Deesaint
I thought the ref was very good

Irony?

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Deesaint
I thought the ref was very good

+1

A new scrum and forwards coach is a must. Time for Dowson to make some tough calls.

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Santiago

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Deesaint
I thought the ref was very good

Irony?

Thought the officials were decent in the first half but very poor at times in the second. Eg in the lead up to the the LI try just after HT there were (I think) 2 forward passes and then their player dropped the ball forward when going to ground. Then a pen to Irish (fair enough) kicked to corner where the Irish hooker takes the throw standing on the pitch boots not in contact with the touch line. Touch judge in front of the north stand in second half also allowed play to continue several times when it very much looked like the ball had left the pitch.

All that said, if your scrum is as weak as ours tonight and you put yourself under pressure with poor decision making you are always going to struggle...

I wondered why Tom James was intent on kicking the ball away in the last few minutes?

Nail on head

‘ the Officials where poor’

I thought the ref controlled the breakdown very well
As well as the play that was in her line of vision

Then we have the video ref who couldn’t decide which team was which
Matched with the assistant refs who look for offside forward pass etc

Poor support



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:10:22:17:42 by Deesaint.

Repeated scrum and lineout errors cost Saints the game. Simple as.

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TunbridgeSaint
Very sad to say but the replacement hooker Callum Burns has potentially cost us a final. Clearly injured and not in a position to carry on but too proud to come off. Ensuing lineout is not straight and he goes off injured, really poor.
That said, we’ve had enough chances but haven’t taken them plus some questionable breakdown decisions haven’t helped

I agree though i dont blame Burns. It's sad he was injured but this was so amateur from the coaches and captain and it probably was the turning point at 72mins, a point game and 5mins from the try line - if he's injured he shouldn't be throwing in. Coles was a poor captain when Braley went off unfortunately we lost structure, he gave away a needless penalty by collapsing a line out in their 22 and then - alongside our coaches - failed to intervene to check Burns was OK before throwing into that crucial line-out.

Our front row (and sometimes front 5) and set piece is still the problem. Irish played well but we win that game with a competitive scrum and line out and better fitness and work rate from our props.

On the plus side some good attacking play, Braley and Grayson played well, Hutchs defence is miles better now, Ollie is becoming a brilliant all round winger and Sylvester and Hendy looks like they could be great players



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:10:22:48:26 by Saintfanh.

I thought Sara Cox had a good first half but went for the dominant side in the second forty which is not so unusual even amongst more experienced referees.

All season long we have been complaining about the Saints front row. Tonight we had at best our third choice props and a new hooker who would probably fourth choice injuries aside. Surely the penny will eventually drop that we are underpowered at 1-3.

I have given up counting how many times we screw up attacking lineouts in the opposition twenty-two - it happens every week and add to that our lack of intensity and discipline in the rolling maul……

It’s not the end of the world to be out of this competition but a win would have kept a feel good factor going following the success at Welford Road..Maybe Irish just wanted it that little bit more - some of their handling and switch play was very impressive.

Presumably the likes of Ribbans and Freeman will be back in the mix next weekend as they are not going to get a sniff of a game in the 6N if they didn’t get picked for Italy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:11:08:34:26 by NGSB.

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TimperleySaint
That pass was miles forward for their try wasn't it?

Looked it - I'd like to have seen a reverse angle to see if it left the hands forward. I was surprised the other week on Facebook when another Saints fan wasn't aware that a forward pass is dependent on that rather than the movement of the ball in isolation.

No fault of Sara Cox though - her assistant was likely better placed to spot it, if it was forward. I think she had a very good good game.

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TunbridgeSaint
Jesus wept, blatant high tackle on Collins, not even checked albeit it would have not made a difference.
And when we had the 5m maul going forwards early in second half, could easily have been a yellow card for the Irish player who brought it down.
Frustrating, feels like a big missed opportunity, charge down try, missed chances.
Disappointing

I thought there was a chance Collins got it down on the line. Should've been looked at and ought to have been a penalty try if the high tackle were given. Still think Cox had a pretty good game overall though.

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Statesman
Chris Boyd take a bow - your legacy lives on! If you can’t scrummage and constantly cough up line out ball you will simply not win Rugby games.

+1

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fleetg

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Statesman
Chris Boyd take a bow - your legacy lives on! If you can’t scrummage and constantly cough up line out ball you will simply not win Rugby games.

+1

Pretty cheap terrible comments this! Petch got schooled by a great loosehead, unsure why Ferguson couldn’t notice he needed replacing before 52 minutes but to take a dig on Chris Boyd who has done so much for the club is quite frankly disgusting and I hope you wake up and realise the misjudgements made.
Irish went stronger than us and deserved the win. I went tonight and Cox was pretty terrible for the supporter in terms of communication. Having to find out why they got a try disallowed just before half time from a friend watching at home because she failed to tell the paying fans simply isn’t acceptable and rugby needs to remember the fans in the ground deserve to be included and not just the armchair fan.

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Awaywin
A new scrum and forwards coach is a must. Time for Dowson to make some tough calls.

He can only work with the players he’s got. Need some props.

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Sans Culottes

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Awaywin
A new scrum and forwards coach is a must. Time for Dowson to make some tough calls.

He can only work with the players he’s got. Need some props.

Whilst we dissect the coaching we also need a root and branch assessment of the recruitment team and methods employed.

Far too many failed "project" players.

As long as we keep blaming the ref we don't need to look at the real reasons we lose games like this.

You have to live with the ref you have, the cap concentrate on the things you can change. It doesn't matter if we have the best ref in the world or someone just starting out after every defeat it is somehow their fault.

All the issues we saw last night have been around for ages, until we start fixing them it doesn't matter who the ref is.

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ajack
As long as we keep blaming the ref we don't need to look at the real reasons we lose games like this.
You have to live with the ref you have, the cap concentrate on the things you can change. It doesn't matter if we have the best ref in the world or someone just starting out after every defeat it is somehow their fault.

All the issues we saw last night have been around for ages, until we start fixing them it doesn't matter who the ref is.

Well said Sir.

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ajack
As long as we keep blaming the ref we don't need to look at the real reasons we lose games like this.
You have to live with the ref you have, the cap concentrate on the things you can change. It doesn't matter if we have the best ref in the world or someone just starting out after every defeat it is somehow their fault.

All the issues we saw last night have been around for ages, until we start fixing them it doesn't matter who the ref is.

Blaming the ref for what though? Us losing? If so, nobody has done that.

That being said, I do agree with your overall point - some decisions go for you, some against and we do have some quite fundamental and recurring problems.

But I pay a lot of money to watch the Saints each year, if I see a TJ that can't even monitor whether the hooker standing right in front of them is actually on the touchline then I will comment.

This is a forum to comment on all facets of rugby matches and the officials are an integral part of that.

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Longers

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Sans Culottes

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Awaywin
A new scrum and forwards coach is a must. Time for Dowson to make some tough calls.

He can only work with the players he’s got. Need some props.

Whilst we dissect the coaching we also need a root and branch assessment of the recruitment team and methods employed.

Far too many failed "project" players.

And who is responsible for the recruitment. 3/4 props came in during his tenure and one is under his tutelage. Surely the forwards coach/scrum coach has a say in recruitment.

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Awaywin

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Longers

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Sans Culottes

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Awaywin
A new scrum and forwards coach is a must. Time for Dowson to make some tough calls.

He can only work with the players he’s got. Need some props.

Whilst we dissect the coaching we also need a root and branch assessment of the recruitment team and methods employed.

Far too many failed "project" players.

And who is responsible for the recruitment. 3/4 props came in during his tenure and one is under his tutelage. Surely the forwards coach/scrum coach has a say in recruitment.

I agree.

But I'm not privileged to knowing if those who came in already had agreed before Dowson took over. That's why I just point to the "process" as a whole.

It's a mess. Nothing short of.

Same conversations again.. so to sum up.. we needed a new defence coach over many weeks, not mentioned tonight but assume that is still on table. We also now need a new scrum coach and a new forwards coach. We also need 4 new props.

Reality check.. financial situation with League generally & club is delicate, we are in a decent position relatively speaking. That said I doubt we have oodles of cash spare to throw around sacking 2 or 3 individuals in the coaching team and then buy out any replacements that will in all likelihood be in gainful employment. So if there is a willingness to freshen up the coaching group I’d be very surprised if this was anymore than one individual

Props and you could broaden this to front row. Agree we are weak as a group. I’ve said this many times on other threads but we don’t seem to be getting it. Good props are rarely available and not on the salary an English club would be willing to pay. Best end up in France on mega bucks. Most English clubs are reliant on developing from within, unearthing a gem from lower leagues or trying to find a bit of a journeyman from other leagues that with a bit of polish could be a good signing. The South African second rate prop (still very good) will be unlikely to come now the SA teams are in the URC. So while I agree it is a weakness it’s unlikely to get significantly better any time soon without breaking the bank which would compromise elsewhere.

Imo our scrum has improved from where it was a couple of seasons ago and at full strength we are competitive enough to suit our game plan. Do we need stronger back up, absolutely. I think a bigger problem is lineout & maul. I’ve lost count of the number of times we kick to the corner and then groan when we either mess the throw up or get easily wrapped up in the maul. We are missing so many scoring opportunities. This for me is this is an easier fix than wholesale personnel changes

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Saintsfan22

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fleetg

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Statesman
Chris Boyd take a bow - your legacy lives on! If you can’t scrummage and constantly cough up line out ball you will simply not win Rugby games.

+1

Pretty cheap terrible comments this! Petch got schooled by a great loosehead, unsure why Ferguson couldn’t notice he needed replacing before 52 minutes but to take a dig on Chris Boyd who has done so much for the club is quite frankly disgusting and I hope you wake up and realise the misjudgements made.
Irish went stronger than us and deserved the win. I went tonight and Cox was pretty terrible for the supporter in terms of communication. Having to find out why they got a try disallowed just before half time from a friend watching at home because she failed to tell the paying fans simply isn’t acceptable and rugby needs to remember the fans in the ground deserve to be included and not just the armchair fan.

I'm sorry my post offended you. My views on Boyd have been expressed on here before. I would have fired him long before he chose to leave. The fact he's still on the payroll mystifies me.

In simple terms last night's game was emblematic of the Boyd era. Scrum being marched backwards, shambolic line out, some basic errors that we shouldn't see at this level, decent attacking lines by the backs, sublime try by Litchfield, lost a game we should really have won etc etc.

I thought he 2 teams were quite evenly matched on paper. Our backline was much stronger than theirs (wouldn't be unhappy to see it start a Prem game), 4-8 I'd pick ours but maybe I'm biased so lets say even, 1-3 they were clearly better - probably better than any 1-3 Saints could have fielded. Overall, I thought the game was quite even and was ultimately decided by their scrum dominance.

Recruitment and development of the front row has been shockingly bad for 5 years. Our pack is lightweight and gets overrun far too often. Our ability to execute core skills (scrummaging, line out, mauling, jackalling etc) is poor. I could go on but it's all been said before.

I've been trying to think of a succinct way to summarise the Boyd legacy - ch saint has just done it brilliantly on the Ribeye thread - 'it provides opposition supporters with an entertaining game.'

For me out scrum was weakened by two second rows who aren't out and out second rows, Coles is a blindside and hasn't quite got the grunt needed and Nansen is an 8 who filled in but again isn't a specialist lock just a fill in.
All this meant our props were not given enough power coming through to help them gain at least parity so git shunted backwards.
The Irish props were immense and i tip my hat to them, they took advantage and rumbled us
This for me shows that we really do need a direct replacement for Ribeye, its always good to promote youngsters but to be competitive you need a proper squad first with bases covered - Dave was a starter and needs like for like replacing with an experienced player.
The lack if depth for us with proper out and out locks is a concern.
Didn't get to see enough if Tom Lockett unfortunately, this was a perfect platform to start him and test him in which for me is what this cup is/was about.
Wanted to see more of Joel Matavesi too.
Also i have been a bit of a critic of James Grayson's, but was pretty impressed with him last night, long may it continue.

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Saintsfan22
Having to find out why they got a try disallowed just before half time from a friend watching at home because she failed to tell the paying fans simply isn’t acceptable and rugby needs to remember the fans in the ground deserve to be included and not just the armchair fan.

Wasn't it apparent from a medic trying to scurry off the pitch with an injured player, while trying to avoid getting hit by Hutch's studs? I'm not sure there's a hand signal that covers that. FWIW, I felt Hutch may have been impeded by a player off the ball and there was a case for it being disallowed because of that as well. Over the course of the whole game I felt her communication was pretty good.

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craig84
For me out scrum was weakened by two second rows who aren't out and out second rows, Coles is a blindside and hasn't quite got the grunt needed and Nansen is an 8 who filled in but again isn't a specialist lock just a fill in.
All this meant our props were not given enough power coming through to help them gain at least parity so git shunted backwards.

Nansen's profile on the Saints site describes him as a lock. I know we haven't seen that much of him but I thought it was mainly in the 2nd row.

If I had been an Irish supporter I might well have been aggrieved that the try was not awarded BUT she made a positive decision and her communication was excellent. On the other hand I thought the TMO was pretty hopeless !

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JCDL86

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Saintsfan22
Having to find out why they got a try disallowed just before half time from a friend watching at home because she failed to tell the paying fans simply isn’t acceptable and rugby needs to remember the fans in the ground deserve to be included and not just the armchair fan.

Wasn't it apparent from a medic trying to scurry off the pitch with an injured player, while trying to avoid getting hit by Hutch's studs? I'm not sure there's a hand signal that covers that. FWIW, I felt Hutch may have been impeded by a player off the ball and there was a case for it being disallowed because of that as well. Over the course of the whole game I felt her communication was pretty good.

Me too thought she was very good overall, missed a couple of things but don’t they all. I liked her player communication. She wasn’t helped by the TMO who kept getting confused which team were which

Irish home v Exeter then in the final, wow what an expensive mistake we made in the group game against LI 🙄



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:12:16:08:33 by BerniesBestFriend.

Could even have paid half the CEO's annual bonus with the takings from the home semi we'd have had! ;-)

A home semi final may have been the "free game" they technically owe for ST holders?

Cox was pretty good as far as I could tell, communicated well with the players, kept control and policed the breakdown well - agree with some comments above that the supporting officials weren't nearly as strong and that seems to quite often be the case. I'd have thought at a minimum checking which colour the teams are wearing would help!

Pretty sure that a good 50% of lineout throws are questionable in terms of foot placement, does it really make any difference?

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LeicesterSaint
......Pretty sure that a good 50% of lineout throws are questionable in terms of foot placement, does it really make any difference?....

In terms of foot placement, it makes no difference to me. But it does suggest a certain sloppiness and failure to look at detail/precision.

Hendy and Litchfield had an opportunity late on, to score a well-needed try. Litchfield over-ran, forward pass. Ball lost. Why was Litchfield in front of the ball? Poor basic skills. Let's not try and excuse it as "over excitement/enthusiasm".

Watch the warm ups and see how often the passing is like that. Sloppy.

It makes me think that someone is not attending to the "little things".

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Longers

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LeicesterSaint
......Pretty sure that a good 50% of lineout throws are questionable in terms of foot placement, does it really make any difference?....

In terms of foot placement, it makes no difference to me. But it does suggest a certain sloppiness and failure to look at detail/precision.

Or it could suggest they've looked very closely at it and know exactly how much they can get away with

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Chris Hoddle
A home semi final may have been the "free game" they technically owe for ST holders?

Darbon's message at the start of the year alluded to another friendly I thought. Quite surprised we've not heard about that yet.

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SaintsDuncan

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Longers

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LeicesterSaint
......Pretty sure that a good 50% of lineout throws are questionable in terms of foot placement, does it really make any difference?....

In terms of foot placement, it makes no difference to me. But it does suggest a certain sloppiness and failure to look at detail/precision.

Or it could suggest they've looked very closely at it and know exactly how much they can get away with

Judging by our performances, I think they might have got it wrong?