Saints v Sale 30th December 2023 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:05:08:39:04 by Saint Ted.

Good to see Odendaal finally getting on the pitch.

Saints 23
Sale. 13

A 6-2 split seems wise given the injuries in the backs and the forcast weather.

why oh why are langdon and courtney not starting and no temo at all, 3 of the best players we have at the moment imho.I hope its not a case of hope we are in the mix then bring them on.Get your best players on the pitch and win the game.

SB - Put it down to rotation. We do not want to run our players into the ground so we have no freshish players come play off time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:29:13:10:20 by Saintlyg.

That’s quite a switch-up. However, still a strong looking team. There’s a lot of strength in depth suddenly! Intrigued to see Odendall, will he fit the system, will he add a new dimension?

If I were Alex Sanderson, I would run down the throat of Saints midfield until, or if, Saints prove they can stop them cold.

That's a very mobile pack, up against a very muscular looking Sale one: No Moon, Temo, Lawes!

We attacked quite narrowly up at their place, but that looks a team set up to go wider and play at pace. Could be quite the clash of styles.

Hope our maul defence (and the weather) still holds up though?!?

Temo's arrival seems to have coincided with an improvement in lineout defence, hope we can maintain that without him. Strong bench so maybe we can pinch it at the end. Come on yoooooo Saints!!!

Would liked to have had the M1 in the centre, but lets hope Burger goes well.

COYS

Quote:

Push Over
Would liked to have had the M1 in the centre, but lets hope Burger goes well.
COYS

Agree, but it's overdue to see if Burger Odendaal has the goods or not. Hoping for a great debut. Hutchinson and Odendaal are going to be kept very busy.

Looks like it's going to be a bit windy, the tent is being taken down in the village, if it's as windy as they say then kicking should be interesting.

As I have to take some pretty strong meds at times I can get confused, this can lead to me posting without thinking, which may come across as offensive to some, please accept my apologies if I do offend and feel free to delete.

Good to see Odendaal playing at last. Very mobile lock combo but leaves the pack looking slightly lightweight without Lawes at 6. A strong bench - the 6-2 split seems sensible.

Game of the round for me mainly because of the number of interesting head-to-heads ahead of 6 Nations selection. I am hopeful that I'll manage to get to the evening not having heard the result and so being able to catch up on the game.

I'm most interested in the Smith/Ford one given the news that the Scots have dangled a rather attractive McCarrot in front of young Finn (being suggested he's been told he'll have a spot in Scotland matchday 23 if he commits to them)
Tbh even before that I'd have had him in the squad and it will be fascinating to see how he manages things.
Freeman/Roebuck, Mitchell/Warr, Coles/Hill and Pearson/Curry all mouth-watering too.
Davison/Schonert also given the paucity of talent at TH for England and both players quality. Both more senior players but still young enough to be options.

Good luck Saints

Being Scottish I’ve never understood why Townsend hasn’t picked Smith in the squad yet. Yes he’s still learning but by the next RWC he will be 3 years wiser and experienced and with Finn Russell to compete against he will learn things.
No brainer as far as I’m concerned.

Dangerous territory, I've found myself agreeing with Austin healey. He said saints attack looks scared, or at least apprehensive of sales defence. Hard to argue otherwise, seem to have changed our game negatively and paying for it currently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:30:15:57:15 by herbie85.

Why are we continually kicking like so, the wind isn’t that bad here but we continually give them the opportunity to come back at us.

Missing Lawes! But Austin’s analysis is spot on!!

If I was SB I would select Finn against Italy and get him locked into an 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 shirt.

Great win today saints!

Well done saints. Looked dangerous when started to play with some ambition. Lose and the top four could have looked a bit of a stretch, even this far out . Kept ourselves in it.

Bench made a difference!

Top of the Premiership!! Well played Saints.

Happy
But no finger nails left
Just tried to our muscles Sale in first half
Played quicker wider game second half
and got result

Great win, we played the right tactics. We made them make a lot of tackles and moved their forwards around. Sale were dead on feet at the end and we stepped into second gear and took advantage.

Did Carley and the rest of the officials look as bad on TV as they looked at the game? Was gobsmacked when we got an offside penalty awarded to us on 75 as I thought they had decided not to bother with any of that today. Plenty of other things missed / ignored too. Oof.

Cracking result! Just need a favour from Tigers to cement the result.

1st half may not have been the plan but our determination has come on leaps and bounds.

The last time we had a real 'never say die' attitude, we ended up... not jinxing it!

Bench made a big impact. We now have a strong squad. Courtney, Langdon and Haffar especially.

Very good win in difficult conditions against top 4 competitors

Dowson said stuck to the game plan perfectly. Knew what 1st half would be & planned more expansive 2nd - love it!

That felt like a game won by the top two inches. A clear strategy set by the coaches and beautifully executed tactically by a team that are using their brains as much as their brawn. This does feel like a team who can really go places. Boyd built the attacking skillsets, and Dows is turning them into the finished article. Incredible.

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Matthew
Did Carley and the rest of the officials look as bad on TV as they looked at the game? Was gobsmacked when we got an offside penalty awarded to us on 75 as I thought they had decided not to bother with any of that today. Plenty of other things missed / ignored too. Oof.

Agreed

Offside becoming as optional as feeding at the scrum and the hooker standing on the pitch. Not blowing the "easier" offences devalues the ref in the eyes of all. imho

I thought Carley and his team were fine. Even Rosie managed to keep his interventions down from his normal level.

Just watching Quins v Glaws from HQ - presenter Woozencroft clearly a Quins fan !

Not seen the game but well done on the result.

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Gaipajama
That felt like a game won by the top two inches. A clear strategy set by the coaches and beautifully executed tactically by a team that are using their brains as much as their brawn. This does feel like a team who can really go places. Boyd built the attacking skillsets, and Dows is turning them into the finished article. Incredible.

Furbs is proving to be a top notch leader and decision maker. The tap and go that led to the penalty try was perfect thinking and he really stands out as a senior player.

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tigersimon
If I was SB I would select Finn against Italy and get him locked into an 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 shirt.

Agree. Smith is currently playing beautifully BUT against Glaws.
His supporters think this means he will do the same against the ABs/SA/etc when International form suggests he won't.

Never in doubt….

I noticed when Sale’s scrum half is about to kick from the back of the ruck (players chained on) another forward stands alongside and then they kick from behind that forward, thus blocking any possible tackle or block of the kick. Is that legal?

Quote:

JohnI
Being Scottish I’ve never understood why Townsend hasn’t picked Smith in the squad yet. Yes he’s still learning but by the next RWC he will be 3 years wiser and experienced and with Finn Russell to compete against he will learn things.
No brainer as far as I’m concerned.

I've been saying the same, don't know why Gregor hasn't made the trip down, it's not as if he doesn't know the way.

What a lovely Christmas present .

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Matthew
Did Carley and the rest of the officials look as bad on TV as they looked at the game? Was gobsmacked when we got an offside penalty awarded to us on 75 as I thought they had decided not to bother with any of that today. Plenty of other things missed / ignored too. Oof.

I don't think he was terribad, but he did keep them in the game a bit. We were better than the score suggests inho.

Furbs is having a hell of a good season and with him being apparently out of favour with SB, that can only be good for Saints both as fullback and Captain. It’s been a great run which only gets more difficult next weekend - really need to avoid any more serious injuries.

Quote:

AlexC
I noticed when Sale’s scrum half is about to kick from the back of the ruck (players chained on) another forward stands alongside and then they kick from behind that forward, thus blocking any possible tackle or block of the kick. Is that legal?

As far as I know totally legal, they come from behind the back foot and just don’t join the ruck but stand in an onside position don’t go any further forward

Warr their 9 took the ball stepped back and kicked, the player didn’t move, perfectly legal

If they’d stepped across to stop a charge down, then it’s blocking if they’d moved forward before ball kicked it’s offside

But where they stand originally is onside, all legal

*PS been drinking hope I know what I mean 😂



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:30:22:01:50 by Neil-H.

Quote:

As far as I know totally legal, they come from behind the back foot and just don’t join the ruck but stand in an onside position don’t go any further forward
Warr their 9 took the ball stepped back and kicked, the player didn’t move, perfectly legal

If they’d stepped across to stop a charge down, then it’s blocking if they’d moved forward before ball kicked it’s offside

But where they stand originally is onside, all legal

*PS been drinking hope I know what I mean 😂

Makes sense, guessed it was off the training field … smart move then, we should possibly do the same!?

What a win, real mental steel. Night and day from previous seasons and Dowse has to be given a huge amount of credit.

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AlexC

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As far as I know totally legal, they come from behind the back foot and just don’t join the ruck but stand in an onside position don’t go any further forward
Warr their 9 took the ball stepped back and kicked, the player didn’t move, perfectly legal

If they’d stepped across to stop a charge down, then it’s blocking if they’d moved forward before ball kicked it’s offside

But where they stand originally is onside, all legal

*PS been drinking hope I know what I mean 😂

Makes sense, guessed it was off the training field … smart move then, we should possibly do the same!?

Pretty much every team does it.

With how Dowse, Vesty and rest of coaching team have got us playing if Borthers doesn’t have a great 2024 would fully expect RFU to come knocking at our door

Remember how we complained that Dowse and Vesty were given the top jobs and we didn't look further afield after Boyd?

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St Stokey.
Remember how we complained that Dowse and Vesty were given the top jobs and we didn't look further afield after Boyd?

I was not one ofthe WE crew and was happy the promotions came from within. Long may the improvement continiue.

It was always potentially a good appointment if we had a little patience. Worried last season that despite our attacking prowess we were not really addressing the fundamental problem that was holding us back. So hats off to Dowse, Sam & team to keep everyone improving and not being afraid to make changes where necessary. Not the finished article by a long way but there’s definite hope in the air. The last few weeks have seen several wins where they wouldn’t have been forthcoming in seasons before

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Stevie Myler's right boot
With how Dowse, Vesty and rest of coaching team have got us playing if Borthers doesn’t have a great 2024 would fully expect RFU to come knocking at our door

With respect would you really?
Nothing won yet and brilliant as this season has been, and it has, it's just half a season so far. With a very good but flawed season last season to add to his accomplishments.
Replacing Borthwick with Dowson would be a very bold/stupid call.

Watched the game back. Didn't notice on first viewing, but tarek haffar looks very busy in the loose. Some good carries, nothing spectacular but kept momentum and go forward, at a time of the game where we needed phases and points.

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OldMarovian

Quote:

Stevie Myler's right boot
With how Dowse, Vesty and rest of coaching team have got us playing if Borthers doesn’t have a great 2024 would fully expect RFU to come knocking at our door

With respect would you really?
Nothing won yet and brilliant as this season has been, and it has, it's just half a season so far. With a very good but flawed season last season to add to his accomplishments.
Replacing Borthwick with Dowson would be a very bold/stupid call.

Your assumption is that the RFU has a competent process when it comes to recruiting

Quote:

herbie85
Watched the game back. Didn't notice on first viewing, but tarek haffar looks very busy in the loose. Some good carries, nothing spectacular but kept momentum and go forward, at a time of the game where we needed phases and points.

I thought he also scrimmaged well
Didn’t do his position in the pecking order any harm at all

Very fair point Deesaint. We're probably lucky that Stuart Hooper has been found a job outside rugby!!

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Deesaint

Quote:

herbie85
Watched the game back. Didn't notice on first viewing, but tarek haffar looks very busy in the loose. Some good carries, nothing spectacular but kept momentum and go forward, at a time of the game where we needed phases and points.

I thought he also scrimmaged well
Didn’t do his position in the pecking order any harm at all

Indeed. When Manny comes back to full fitness, nice to have some competition at loose head.

A somewhat O/T comment but just listening to the commentary on the Sarries/Falcons game and thoroughly enjoying the input of Christian Day on comms.

A couple more thoughts on yesterday and the discussion above.

1. We seem to be conceding far fewer penalties this year - particularly silly and soft ones. Those we give up seem to be around the breakdown when we are genuiinely competing for the ball. We rarely get pinged for off side, not rolling away . (Before Ajack asks I do not have stats to back this up - just a gut feel.)

2.. Our missed tackles count was far lower than Sales yesterday.

3. We are stealing ball at the libeout very effectively - sonetimesxst crucial monents.


2. In terms of the coaching team and the promotion from within comments above. Yes we did promote from within and this did get some criticism on here BUT lets not forget that Mr Radford was not from within. So in balance are both sides of that devate correct?

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Sans Culottes

Quote:

Matthew
Did Carley and the rest of the officials look as bad on TV as they looked at the game? Was gobsmacked when we got an offside penalty awarded to us on 75 as I thought they had decided not to bother with any of that today. Plenty of other things missed / ignored too. Oof.

Agreed

Offside becoming as optional as feeding at the scrum and the hooker standing on the pitch. Not blowing the "easier" offences devalues the ref in the eyes of all. imho

I thought the same. The officiating of the offside line was loose to say the least and Sale got away with straying offside numerous times. Difficult to play against, but credit to the squad for another excellent win. Really pleasing to see the impact of the bench and great character. And so good to see FG full (and very loud for the last 20 mins in particular). Its starting to become a hard place for teams to come to, again.

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St Marcus

Quote:

Sans Culottes

Quote:

Matthew
Did Carley and the rest of the officials look as bad on TV as they looked at the game? Was gobsmacked when we got an offside penalty awarded to us on 75 as I thought they had decided not to bother with any of that today. Plenty of other things missed / ignored too. Oof.

Agreed

Offside becoming as optional as feeding at the scrum and the hooker standing on the pitch. Not blowing the "easier" offences devalues the ref in the eyes of all. imho

I thought the same. The officiating of the offside line was loose to say the least and Sale got away with straying offside numerous times. Difficult to play against, but credit to the squad for another excellent win. Really pleasing to see the impact of the bench and great character. And so good to see FG full (and very loud for the last 20 mins in particular). Its starting to become a hard place for teams to come to, again.

I totally agree it was a excellent win
If there was one thing I could critique it was AM’s passing from the base of the breakdown in the first half

In the first half he lifted the ball before winding up to pass
As soon as he lifted the ball Sale could advance which is why they were into our line so quickly, making it appear they were offside

In the second half Alex was passing from the base without the lift

Only a second or two difference but enough to put Sale onto our line with little time to play

Quote:

Push Over
A couple more thoughts on yesterday and the discussion above.
1. We seem to be conceding far fewer penalties this year - particularly silly and soft ones. Those we give up seem to be around the breakdown when we are genuiinely competing for the ball. We rarely get pinged for off side, not rolling away . (Before Ajack asks I do not have stats to back this up - just a gut feel.)

2.. Our missed tackles count was far lower than Sales yesterday.

3. We are stealing ball at the libeout very effectively - sonetimesxst crucial monents.


2. In terms of the coaching team and the promotion from within comments above. Yes we did promote from within and this did get some criticism on here BUT lets not forget that Mr Radford was not from within. So in balance are both sides of that devate correct?

I think our decision making defensively is much better this season, we are playing much smarter. We are not competing at every breakdown and every lineout we are picking our moments to do so. Similarly with tackle technique, the choke tackle is being employed but again we are choosing the moment to do this rather than it being the ‘go to’ every time.

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herbie85
Watched the game back. Didn't notice on first viewing, but tarek haffar looks very busy in the loose. Some good carries, nothing spectacular but kept momentum and go forward, at a time of the game where we needed phases and points.

Have to agree, he had a few nice runs against Glaws which drove them back hard. And did the same again this weekend against Sale. I think he needs more game time, ramped up prudently because he is a prop who is only 22. But he is showing he has the potential for a very good future. No guarantees, of course, but it's up to Haffar the coaching and S&C teams to bring him along properly.