Saints v Bristol 22/03/24 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:28:09:00:29 by Saint Ted.

Interesting that Jame & Braley are missing. Injury?

I like that a lot. Mc Parland might be fouth choice but he looked very good in the U20s and I’d rate him higher than Braley. Showing faith in the youngsters has to be the way to go and Garside on the bench can cover 9 and wing.

Odendaal opposite BJVR is an interesting match up too

Those scrum half options are really exciting, I find. I was then looking for Pollock on the team sheet too, but that will come with time.

2 good looking teams. Im glad thacker is not playing. He always has a stormer against us

+1 about Harry Thacker. Even back to his Leicester days, he always seemed to excel against us.

I'm a little surprised that Dingwall in on the bench but Odendaal looked decent against both Stormers and Sale.

This could be a real break out moment for McParland and Garside.

Garside was very quick at 9 last week. A bit raw with the kicking but an exciting prospect.

On the Bristol side, interesting that they're rushing Genge back in, but then only putting him on the bench. I would have assume that they would either have given him a rest, or started him. And interesting that Malins is only on the bench.

On our side, interesting that Tarek Hafar isn't listed as injured. So despite Hafar being the one who got the England A call-up, it seems that Iyogun (and A.Waller) are ahead of him right now (at least for this week). And interesting to see Lockett picked ahead of Munga and Moon on the bench.

Am also glad that Graham is being given a fair crack at starting. And excited about Augustus's impact off the bench. Realistically, once Pearson is back (he's not listed as injured, but presume he's still coming back from injury a bit), we have 5 back rows who deserve to start (Lawes, Ludlam, Pearson, Augustus, Graham). And one more (Scott-Young) who probably wouldn't get picked ahead of any of those 5, but has been brilliant for us.

Didn't Munga go off with a HIA against Sale?

As a Bristol fan, I am also surprised that Genge isn't starting. Pat Lam stated in the week that as we are out of Europe then he can rest then. Yann Thomas has been unavailable all season so wondering if he will start and Genge will come on once Thomas gets tired, possibly before half time.

Malins has been out injured for quite a while and has only recently started training. He hasn't actually been our best full back this season, that has been Rich Lane, who is left out altogether.

I'm intrigued how Langdon is now available after he got a 4 match ban in the same gameweek as Josh Caulfield, who got a 3 match ban and is still unavailable.

Both teams look strong and the weather should be dry so hoping for a really good game.

Caulfield played the foilowing week . He has missed two games. Langdon has missed 4; 3 Saints and Eng A.
Caulfield was lucky not to get more.

Thanks TWSaint, I couldn't work out where Langdon had used his extra game as there was one league game and only two friendlies.

I know Caulfield played against Bath and we've only had two friendlies so expected him to still be out, unfortunately we couldn't argue that he would have been in the England A squad.

More in hope that Langdon wouldn't be available as he has been brilliant this season and thought he was unlucky not to make the full training squad.

Well, here we go!! Back to the prem!

Good to see some returnees - Hendy was a revelation at the start of the year, and Ramm is always solid so that’s a welcome return!

Seems like we have a bit of a ‘crisis’ at scrum half with the top 3 either rested or broken. Still, an opportunity for the youngsters to really get stuck in!

Fingers crossed that we can pick up where we left off!

Come on you Saints!!!

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Sir Hector
Odendaal opposite BJVR is an interesting match up too

I don't want appear rude and it's something I've mentioned before about our own player abbreviations and acronyms, but the use for opposing team players in so confusing, who is BJVR?

I kind of get what you mean Hammersaint but given the teams are listed in full at the top of the thread we might not need Sherlock Holmes to provide an answer

Van Rensburg, ex L Irish

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HammerSaint

Quote:

Sir Hector
Odendaal opposite BJVR is an interesting match up too

I don't want appear rude and it's something I've mentioned before about our own player abbreviations and acronyms, but the use for opposing team players in so confusing, who is BJVR?

To be fair (and as a generalisation you have a point) it's fairly obvious from the teamsheet further up who is "opposite Odendaal"

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SaintsDuncan

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HammerSaint

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Sir Hector
Odendaal opposite BJVR is an interesting match up too

I don't want appear rude and it's something I've mentioned before about our own player abbreviations and acronyms, but the use for opposing team players in so confusing, who is BJVR?

To be fair (and as a generalisation you have a point) it's fairly obvious from the teamsheet further up who is "opposite Odendaal"

A fair comment on both points!

This is a fascinating team. The pack looks pretty strong with a really good back row. Archie McP facing Harry Randall will be interesting, especially with Archie just coming back from the U20 Six Nations. The back line could be good, but not sure how Hendy and Ramm will fare just now really sinking their teeth in post injuries. Also looking forward to seeing Litchfield and Lockett come on and make an impact again.

Only caveat is a mid-season break like leaves a lot of unknowns about how teams will get up to speed for the last third of the season. I think most of the games will depend on how teams were able to get back to their cutting edge. It is certainly not a given that any team will simply pick up where they left off. It really seems almost like a new season.

Sorry, normally I wouldn’t abbreviate but his name takes up two lines on the teamsheet even!

It's definitely an opportunity for McParland to put down a marker - maybe a chance to stake a place in the senior pecking order.

McParland was excellent last week, hope he goes well again tonight. Despite the absentees it's still a pretty strong squad with some quality on the bench as well. Hopeful of a point or two at least.

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St Marcus
McParland was excellent last week, hope he goes well again tonight. Despite the absentees it's still a pretty strong squad with some quality on the bench as well. Hopeful of a point or two at least.

I don't think they will let us down at all. Having seen Garside against Sale, OK not a pressure game, but proper opposition nevertheless, I even wondered if he might not get the nod ahead of AMc. I thought his last England game showed a few signs of tiredness.

I really hope he has a cracking game and pushes himself up the pecking order.
Guys have to take these opportunities when they arrive.
At the same time it should show the coaches if it's worth continuing

I'm hoping the proper, give it a lash, Bristol turn up and its a great game.
Really looking forward to seeing Finn Smith play again.

Well - that was against the run of play!

Not a good start for our young scrum half, multiple mistakes in 5 minutes.

Where was his protection?

Different ball game from U20 England to Premiership. They should be helping him . All over the place

I do hope the ref starts looking at the offside line. Couple of times now Mcpartland has lifted the ball to pass and only seen 2 Bristol players!

Oh dear………

I think Mr Graham needs to start picking and going for the scrum to take the load off McPartland.

Unfortunately it is a huge jump from age group games to premiership

But these are the games that show how good players are
Not sure our 9 has done enough to look like a future regular first team

Let’s hope he sheds the nerves settles in and comes through

Unfortunately we are under huge pressure due to his poor play



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:22:20:03:59 by Deesaint.

Forward pass

Half asleep most of them

Whatever we did during the holidays … let’s not do that again.

So we're just going to ignore the fact that final pass was forward then?

We’re lacking leadership on the field. Getting close to a point a minute conceded now. Very weak start.

Looking very much like a few seasons ago after 6 nations, still on the bus and no game plan.

Bristol hooker two feet on the pitch when taking the lineout……..

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None
Bristol hooker two feet on the pitch when taking the lineout……..

Yep that was so obvious.... Need to get points on the board here

This is going to be a hard day at the office.

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St Marcus

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None
Bristol hooker two feet on the pitch when taking the lineout……..

Yep that was so obvious.... Need to get points on the board here

So that’s why we are loosing

Mcparland a bit out of his depth, slow in getting the ball out and away from danger

Most issues stemming from Archie’s struggles at the base. However ref needs to hurry Randall up, isn’t rushing him at all but all over Archie.

Attempted neck roll by Ibitoye on Odendaal not picked up. Turns out there is a TMO, though...

Getting on the wrong side of the ref
I thought we obliterated their scrum
But penalty against

We are not doing great, but is Maxwell-Keyes making stuff up as he’s going along. Bristol are offside, falling all over the ball and now decided Bristol have the scrum on toast. Its just nonsense.

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Always2Hopeful
We are not doing great, but is Maxwell-Keyes making stuff up as he’s going along. Bristol are offside, falling all over the ball and now decided Bristol have the scrum on toast. Its just nonsense.

Agree, some odd decisions. Archie has been caught out a few times but we need the forwards to help him a bit more. Accuracy across the board needs to be better.

So, do we yank young Archie off and let Garside have a go??? Might as well?

Also our defense appears to have become the 2023 version.

Well … massive team talk and a quiet ref review and fingers cross for the next 40mins.

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Always2Hopeful
So, do we yank young Archie off and let Garside have a go??? Might as well?
Also our defense appears to have become the 2023 version.

Well … massive team talk and a quiet ref review and fingers cross for the next 40mins.

The forwards need to protect AP more , and the ref needs to notice all the off the ball “ not quite” tackles that Bristol are making to assist their runners.

Tough night for the young man up against an experienced niggly opposite number. Needs to wisen up to the pace of the game.

Time for some changes, I think. We have zero control anywhere

Well, tonight this far has been very ordinary to put it mildly....

Sorry but our 9 is painfully slow
Both in thought and pass
Long way off premiership standard

We seem like it’s the first time we have played together
Just slow clunky and uncoordinated

Can’t watch anymore

Maxwell keys is an absolute joke

Quote:

Deesaint
Sorry but our 9 is painfully slow
Both in thought and pass
Long way off premiership standard

We seem like it’s the first time we have played together
Just slow clunky and uncoordinated

Can’t watch anymore

I fear you are right. The malaise goes way beyond AP no one is lighting this up.

Now Mxwell gives the try. Held up, much!

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Gold stand steward
Maxwell keys is an absolute joke

He's been pretty bad, but not as bad as our players have been tonight.

Was the ball down? Not convinced

Well, CMK knows who he wants to win. We are pretty clueless up to 50 minutes - changes made thankfully.

Very sloppy game. Captain getting binned is never a good look, and a very lazy one to concede too.

Overall when we maintain shape our defence is good, but it seems we lose our heads a bit too easily and CMK seems a little bit unpredictable tonight.

That was a lovely try from Ollie. Maybe there is still hope.

We’ve clearly done something to upset Mr Maxwell Keys

Class from Fin & Ollie there

Defensively this is dreadful. Men against boys physicality wise.

The commentator was getting really excited in the first half at a new 'law' with refs getting tighter on using it quicker from the breakdown. Seems as slow as it's ever been other than to repeat 'use it' a few more times.

Bristol take advantage of our 2023 variety defence.

Dummy throw at the line out and forward pass 🤷

Totally embarrassing performance. Bristol may not have been affected by 6N but our tackling and handling is atrocious. Scrum getting hammered and penalty’s galore, Mcparland just not at this level and little coming from slower ball. Munster must be licking their lips at the thought of meeting us in ERC

Try not to criticise referees but maxwell Keyes is terrible and his linesmen are missing things by the ton.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:22:21:18:19 by JohnI.

This could be an epic comeback!

Maybe not.

We’ve become bad, over a two month break.

What a shocker. Us and the ref

Hopefully this is our horrendous game of the season. Cobwebs gone, roll on next week

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JohnI
Totally embarrassing performance. Bristol may not have been affected by 6N but our tackling and handling is atrocious. Scrum getting hammered and penalty’s galore, Mcparland just not at this level and little coming from slower ball. Munster must be licking their lips at the thought of meeting us in ERC
Try not to criticise referees but maxwell Keyes is terrible and his linesmen are missing things by the ton.

Agree with all of it unfortunately. We need the England players back in, Pearson too and the whole squad to massively up their game for next week.

CMK amd TJs truly awful too

Well, you can only hope from a game like this that it serves as a massive wake up call. Everything has been off tonight. Yes the refs been strange in different calls, but in reality he's not been the ultimate cause of the result.

Will Mitch be back next week?

75 mins and 50 secs. We were awarded a penalty.

Saints have been appalling and Bristol by far the better side.
However, I am so frustrated by the total lack of refereeing the not straight in the scrum and lineout, continual offsides, in at the side etc ...
The only thing the referees seem to care about is the high tackle.
The game has become a complete lottery depending on who is officiating.

Bristol far more physical. Lahiff and Genge coming off the bench shows how powerful they can be.
Manny, Matevesi and Davison not at the races tonight.

Weakest performance for a long time - only Sarries and Munster coming up next…….

Who was the tighthead on the bench? It wasn't Paul Hill

What an absolute shower!! Dear god - this has to be a wake up call now… we have been slow to everything, weak at the breakdown, clueless in attack, porous in defence - yeesh

Still, Saracens next week, time to get back on the horse!

Ed Prowse bench tighthead.

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fleetg
Saints have been appalling and Bristol by far the better side.
However, I am so frustrated by the total lack of refereeing the not straight in the scrum and lineout, continual offsides, in at the side etc ...
The only thing the referees seem to care about is the high tackle.
The game has become a complete lottery depending on who is officiating.

I agree about the lineout, early for n the first half they had a lineout which was so bent Bristol caught it on their outside.

Meanwhile in Dubai………..

Not a night I’d care to remember but I’m sure the team will. Onwards & upwards, though …

Officiating not the best but no excuse

Pathetic all round. Thought Fin Smith was anonymous.
Forwards really out muscled. Some odd ref decisions to put it mildly.
5 very tough league games to come now. Play like this we wont finish in the top half of the table.

So the Friendles we had which I didnt attend and part of our season ticket 🥵🥵 were a waste of time if we perform like that and a waste of money for the supporters??

Mitchell,freeman,dingwall,pearson,langdon, all need to start next week. That was worst performance of the season . Sleightholme only player i can say played well

Didn't see that coming.
Disagree cparksaint I though Fin Smith was still boss. Created two trys from nothing by reading the game quickly. Kicked beautifully to and was composed throughout despite the teams struggles and a 9 who will have learned a lot but had a tough day at the office and fed him some pretty low quality ball.
As said above you have a significant number of quality players to come back and as your next opponents I'd certainly be concerned about a back-lash after that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:22:21:47:24 by OldMarovian.

Saints were pushed into a type of game that is not their forte. Briz imposed themselves and took the referee along for the ride. We still have huge problems in the front row, Curtis Langdon aside. Archie will learn from this but needs time playing with seasoned players rather than schoolboys - what price the Wanderers now ?

Well that was embarrassing and I've toned down the language. Although I put down a win in the hunch I had a bad feeling about tonight. I hope this is not the sign of things to come for the rest of the season and just a blip after the long break but I don't know, I guess we shall have to see what happens against Sarries. Come on lads, you are way better than tonight's showing.

What a shambles but difficult to play with that refereeing performance. I don’t think we got a single turnover all evening as we seemingly couldn’t play at the ruck.
And Ludlams yellow card was laughable, the maul was stationary then a yellow card, baffling! Scrum penalties where Bris were pushing early. You can’t mitigate for a performance like that I’m afraid. CMK has never stepped up to international and is usually seen in the championship, you can see why.

That said Archie had a mare but a young man so can’t be blamed. Just a bad day at the office and draw a line underneath it.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Didn't see that coming.
Disagree cparksaint I though Fin Smith was still boss. Created two trys from nothing by reading the game quickly. Kicked beautifully to and was composed throughout despite the teams struggles and a 9 who will have learned a lot but had a tough day at the office and fed him some pretty low quality ball.
As said above you have a significant number of quality players to come back and as your next opponents I'd certainly be concerned about a back-lash after that.

Thanks OM, a typically balanced post. Completely agree about Fin. Received very very little decent ball but produced two tries from nothing as you say. Thought he was class.

Completely outplayed tonight. It was obvious who wanted it more. Some of our ‘bigger’ players were really poor tonight. That, with a mix of young kids was never going to work. CMK was absolutely terrible tonight and missed more forward passes tonight than he should in a whole season! But, we were our own worst enemies since apparently we did nothing over the last few weeks. Radford will be fuming with that utter garbage they dished up tonight. They need to actually try though, that would be a start. How do second rows allow a centre to pinch a restart?? They need a kick up the @#$%&!

Now, I'm one of Hutchinson's biggest fans, but was he playing tonight? I don't think I heard him mentioned once.

The main profit from tonight is how much McParland has learned. His early charged down clearance was because there was noone to pass to, IMHO he grew into the game and left the pitch a better player, and next time he's on the pitch he'll move on from that point.

A pity we didn't get a fourth try.

Back at my hotel now. Was a very poor performance. Not sure if any of our players looked half decent. Lewis had a word with the ref at the start of the second half. Waited for him to come out. Seem to result in a string of penalties against Saints and Lewis sent off
Need to improve so much to stand a chance against Sarries next week

Second best all over the pitch tonight.

Mullered in the scrum. Which is a concern! No answer to Bristol’s line speed for much of the game. Really missed Mitch’s running threat from 9. Terrible discipline too. The penalty count must be awful. And defensive mistakes all over. Lewis really didn’t look fully fit to me. His mobility looked off all game.

We don’t become a bad team overnight, and still top of the league. With plenty of quality to come back in! And Bristol grew into the game and played very well. Take it on the chin and move on!

All England players should start next week if fit. Agree with Stoofer re Lewis - would have Pearson to start next week if he is fit. I hope Furbs is going to be back soon as well - we need him.

Haven’t watched the game. Gut feeling was that we would lose. Too much class missing including our Captain Furbank.

I don't think the missing players would have made much difference. If you can't secure your own ball, having sizzling runners isn't an advantage.
Referee correctly decided that Bristol were dominant in the scrum and refereed accordingly. Unfortunately where we did win an occassional scrum that meant there had to be skullduggery on our part in his mind, so he prevented any kind of fair contest from occurring.

Offside not refereed.
Forward passes ignored.
Crooked lineout ignored.

Saints gave no thought to the sudden change in the weather at ko and gave away a good start by failing to look after the ball whilst the rain made conditions difficult, even Courtney tried to offload a bar of soap in the first minute. If we'd converted that pressure into 7 points the whole game might well have been different.
That said there was far more power and pace from Bristol, Mallins' try summed up the game really.
It will take a lot to recover from that stuffing.

A good referee should judge every single incident on its merits. Favouring a dominant scrum should not be on the agenda.

Malins' try is a fun one. Poor tackling for sure, but watch where the hooker's feet are touching the pitch at the point the ball is thrown in from the lineout! Not even subtle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:23:08:44:08 by Matthew.

So was it;
The weather
The Referee
The distance between this and last game
Missing players
Etc

Or in reality a really poor performance by the team

I think the latter
I gave up watching it was that bad

A good few players found out
Some very weak and in cases seemingly disinterested
For example of our back row the only one fighting to get back and never giving up was Courtney
It also shows the gulf of difference between England U20 and the premiership

On to next week
Let’s hope Pearson is fit as well as internationals returning

We had to go in fully loaded to have a chance against a very good Bristol team and we didn’t - I thought the selections were odd, a gamble which didn’t pay off. Shouldn’t have exposed the likes of mcpartland or garside. With a short season and the importance of momentum we need to be playing Mitchell, freeman, Pearson et al as much as possible, and who were seemingly available (not on unavailable list anyway). Scott young would have improved the back row (which was poor, Courtney excepted) and we needed moon in the second row. Maybe resting players will pay off in the long run, I hope so. We didn’t even start with the best 15 of the 23 available, which was also odd for me. Handed the opposition a healthy head start. Bad day at the office which shows that the saints soft underbelly has not gone away.

Sometimes a team collectively are just awful. It shouldn't happen but it does. This was even worse than England against Scotland.

The important thing is the coaches look for the real reasons and the squad work hard on what they can change not all this the ref was awful nonsense.

You don't become a bad team in one game, or indeed a good one. Need to trust the systems that got us to the top of the table and work hard at getting back to the level we were at.

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stoofer
Second best all over the pitch tonight.
Mullered in the scrum. Which is a concern! No answer to Bristol’s line speed for much of the game. Really missed Mitch’s running threat from 9. Terrible discipline too. The penalty count must be awful. And defensive mistakes all over. Lewis really didn’t look fully fit to me. His mobility looked off all game.

We don’t become a bad team overnight, and still top of the league. With plenty of quality to come back in! And Bristol grew into the game and played very well. Take it on the chin and move on!

Thanks stoofer. Momentum definately shifted on the first half turnover penalty when you were camped on our try line. You don't need to explain momentum shift to us, we have plenty of history there! Best of luck for the rest of the season

When this season started, it took Saints about 5 games to start to hit their stride. This seems so much like the start of another season (which I had said before) so perhaps the team needs time to bed in for the new season. Unfortunately, there is not much time.

Feel bad for McP. He was slow and sometimes indecisive. But this was a good experience for him to get acquainted with the speed at the top level.

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Saint Gordo
When this season started, it took Saints about 5 games to start to hit their stride. This seems so much like the start of another season (which I had said before) so perhaps the team needs time to bed in for the new season. Unfortunately, there is not much time.
Feel bad for McP. He was slow and sometimes indecisive. But this was a good experience for him to get acquainted with the speed at the top level.

Must admit I was surprised to see him starting and playing 80 minutes. We rested the England lads yet played McP who has played almost all the U20 six nations games.

Where was Tom James? Surely not injured?

Also how come Ed Prowse came on? Someone must have pulled out at last minute. Poor lad coming on to face a fresh Genge with a home biased ref had no chance

McP was charged down a couple of times in the U20 6 Nations. So clearly a work-on for him. Certainly agree Garside needed the game time.

Prowse replaced Paul Hill. No info what happened there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:23:12:45:09 by Saint Gordo.

Rugbypass reporting that Paul Hill leaving for Edinburgh presumably for start of next season rather
than immediately

It’s an interesting question, do you pick players who are leaving or give that game time to players who are here next season?
Interesting that Lockett was on the bench instead of Moon but Ludlum looked miles off it last night.
I’d like to see Lawes-Pearson-Augustus as our back row for the rest of the season with graham on the bench.

Not surprised to here Paul Hill is off but leaves a little short at tight head for next season?

Friday’s team for Saracens will be very interesting. Saracens looked very sharp against Quins. Fingers crossed the Bristol game was used to get the likes of Ram & Hendy back up to speed and rest a few of the others.

I would agree that sometimes the stars simply align themselves in a bad way resulting to a poor team performance across the board. Whilst CMK may have been his usual irritating self, the root cause was the Saints players underperforming and Brizzle being far more motivated which gave them a well deserved victory over the erstwhile league leaders.

Our props were totally outplayed over eighty minutes by Messrs Thomas, Sinkler, Lahiff and Genge.
Our best hooker was on the bench.
The second row looked very slow.
Lawes played well but was frustrated by first tacklers being on the wrong side of the ball.
Ludlam looks very out of form.
Our most effective number eight was on the bench.
Our debutant scrum half was out of his depth but will be a better player for it.
Fin Smith had a 6.5/10 performance but was not able to fully boss the game.
Sleights grabbed two good tries, Ramm looked useful but got little ball.
Odendaal made some decent yards.
Hutch was anonymous.
Hendy should have done better with the first try otherwise ditto Rory.

If we were at home to Newcastle next weekend, I would surmise there would have been different selections for last nights game. As we now have Sarries and Munster in successive games at The Gardens, I can only deduce that the Coaches took the risk of playing an under-strength team against Bristol with the the cushion of a seven point lead in the table.

There are but five league games left this season before the play-offs plus a home game in the European Cup. After the enforced layoff for the squad and down time for Mitchell, Freeman and Furbank ( injury ? ) it is now time to go full bore in each and every game from now on - it’s what they get paid for after all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:03:23:19:10:58 by None.

Never thought I'd say it but, if only we'd have had Austin commentating. It might have been the only way to get the TMO to look at what was going on!