Saints v Munster 7th April 2024 - Teams Up

What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:12:08:02:02 by Saint Ted.

Worth noting John Ryan, their tighthead replacement, might not play if Munster lose their appeal to his red card at the weekend…

Great to see Mitch back on the bench, which looks very strong – a lot of power and pace to bring on. Main worry remains the lack of specialist FH cover. Freemo as cover? Shame not to have Pearson too, but both Graham and Ludlam were excellent off the bench last week. We’ll need all of that intensity again. On paper I think we look the better 23, but there is plenty of quality in the Munster side.

As requested by Coles, TJ and Sleights on the Saints show (where they spent several minutes talking about the importance of the crowd) we have a massive role to play on Sunday. Munster will probably bring the largest travelling support we have ever had visit the Gardens, vital we outsing them. ‘Jimmies’ as a counter chant to ‘Munster’ should work well
Would like to see the team bring back the lap at the end of warm up – and do it around the whole pitch, we’ll raise the roof.

And in case anyone needs reminding of what a good atmosphere at FG sounds like, this is it:

Tigers semi 2014

COYS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:12:29:03 by St Marcus.

Having Mitchell back, even if on the bench, is a huge plus.

6/2 bench is interesting so expecting huge workrate from the forwards off the ball knowing they will be subbed. Strong bench for Saints.

For Munster we have a mixed view.
Up front we have depth issue. Starting front row will be OK but reserves aren't at this level.
Lock we have RG back which is huge in terms of skill and power.
Backrow we are strong too.
Nash is a big loss on wing.
Zebo is a ready replacement and Haley back is massive for us.
People forget we had no specialist 15 when we played ye in January. Haley adds so much. If the weather is poor it should help us but Saints have bigger more powerful forwards.

Didn’t realise Tom Pearson was injured. That is a huge shame. He was excellent last week!

Interesting Tom was supposed to be on The Saints Show on Wednesday. There was a late change but Graham was making it very clear that Tom was not injured

Even before hearing about Munsters injury woes I had Saints to win this. Mitchell back is huge, Pearson out is a blow but you have other quality options and have already shown you have their number.
Fin Smith to put down another marker for the starting 10 shirt for England please.
Good luck 👍

Hendy will be 10 cover but I’ve no idea when he last played there (and at what level). Mitchell on the bench is a massive boost. Always reassured to see Dingwall in the centres. Pretty pleased overall. Ludlam will need to up his ref communication to compete with POM’s whinging.

What's the rationale for swapping Odendaal and Dingers in the 12 and 13 jerseys I wonder?

Quote:

stoofer
What's the rationale for swapping Odendaal and Dingers in the 12 and 13 jerseys I wonder?

Crash ball ?

Quote:

FommyTreeman
Hendy will be 10 cover but I’ve no idea when he last played there (and at what level). Mitchell on the bench is a massive boost. Always reassured to see Dingwall in the centres. Pretty pleased overall. Ludlam will need to up his ref communication to compete with POM’s whinging.

A whinging POM, sure I have heard that somewhere before!

Munster’s bench tighthead prop, John Ryan, failed his appeal for a tip tackle ban meaning Munster’s 5th choice tighthead is on the bench (an academy player).

We definitely need to target their scrum. If they choose to keep their starting tighthead on then he will be knackered by the end of the game which should pay dividends in later scrums and he could become a liability in the loose, especially aged 36.

The appeal was unsuccessful, Ryan can’t play and they’ve promoted some young lad to the bench instead.

A few quick thoughts between procedures:
First, Tom James better practise getting his box kicks out without getting blocked.
Second, I have a feeling Langdon is going to have a great game.
Third, a lot is riding on Ramm since Furbank is out.

Blimey that 2nd row (theirs) will take some beating.

Quote:

NobbyClarke
A whinging POM, sure I have heard that somewhere before!

Ha! you might not hear this POM as much as you think. He's no longer the Munster captain. That's Beirne nowadays; arguably a more gentle soul (although POM is much misunderstood !).

our role as 16th player is as importatnt as the team.Let's get the shoe armt treatment out early and regularly. We need another 2014 semi final against Leicester. Get the noise going early and keep it going. come on SHOE ARMY, SHOE ARMY, SHOE ARMY!!

L]et's make some noise!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:19:01:51 by Saintlyg.

Deleted repeated post



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:05:19:02:24 by Saintlyg.

Quote:

Saintlyg
our role as 16th player is as importatnt as the team.Let's get the shoe armt treatment out early and regularly. We need another 2014 semi final against Leicester. Get the noise going early and keep it going. come on SHOE ARMY, SHOE ARMY, SHOE ARMY!!
L]et's make some noise!!!!

100%. Watched this back many times. An epic but error strewn game. There was no way we were losing that with the crowd that night. We pushed and pulled that team over the line as if we were on the pitch ourselves. Team and fans intrinsically linked as one.

Precisely why I have always thought playing downhill in the second half is an advantage….crescendo of noise at the South Stand. I think weather conditions will, however, play an important part in choice of ends.

Irish Times predicting Munster to win

Quote:

Harpole Saint
Worth noting John Ryan, their tighthead replacement, might not play if Munster lose their appeal to his red card at the weekend…

I understand that Ryan lost his appeal and this could be significant later on in the game.

Thats a very balanced and informative piece. 3500 possible travelling support is very impressive.

Just noticed who the ref is and I don’t think he is the strongest. Hope I’m wrong but Lewis needs to ensure we don’t get on the wrong side of him

That's one way of putting it.

Munster changes.

RG Snyman is ruled OUT.

Shane Daly is ruled OUT.

Sean O’Brien and Tom Ahern start. Shay McCarthy and Jack O’Donoghue onto the bench.

Snyman out is a big loss for them.

Those changes are massive!!

Quote:

Saint Maul
Snyman out is a big loss for them.

Youd think so but Munster seem to have got pretty used to playing without him.

He must be on more £/minute than Manu!

The game in on at breakfast time here. Let's hope for no indigestion on Sunday morn. Then I go out and play Touch with the club, which we do every Sunday. We have quite a few Munsterites at my club so we MUST win.....

Will be following this one from Split.
Fingers crossed the boys can do it again.
Have a great day. Sad to be missing this one.. At least we have wall to wall sunshine as compensation!

Lovely sun this morning over in NN6 ... could do with a bit less wind though! I was at Cobblers vs Carlisle yesterday and it caused problems for both teams.

That was quite a first half!

Cracking game. Well done. Enjoy the evening and good luck for the QFs!

Hendy breaking those tackles reminds me of a certain Mr Beal 😁

Congratulations from a Sarries supporter. Good luck for the next round.

Congratulations lads, superb result and I wish that I had watched it now, I went in the garden the whole match didn't want to jinx them. Bring on the Bulls next week.
I hope everyone gets home safely including all the Munster fans.

Quote:

Banzai1314
Congratulations from a Sarries supporter. Good luck for the next round.

Great win for saints, score a good reflection overall. The atmosphere came over well on itv today, noisy and in good song. Munster ran out of steam in the second half and saints attack so much more hungry and precise. Not sure what sort of game the bulls will bring next week, haven't seen much of them playing away

Defence, defence, defence

Add the clinical try scoring

We are so much a better team this season, amazing result and to be fair Munster never really looked like winning once they had butchered a chance to go 19/21~7 up

Hope Fin is fit for next week be was really struggling at end. Langon quite rightly got man of the match

That was a fraught game to watch
Fantastic result against a very good Munster team

Couple of work ons
Our exit was pretty poor and kept putting us under pressure
Plus breakdown, gave away far too much

But what a different team
Just keep getting better

On to next Saturday evening

Congratulations, great game to watch as a Neutral.

Radford has transformed the team and please can Mr Vesty come home!

Why do I feel like lighting up a cigar?

Well done lads. Home advantage counted.

The coaches should take huge credit for the defensive fight and the weight gain programme (Hendy breaking Crowley’s tackle for his second try).

Langdon’s one handed take of the ball and counter-attack was a thing of beauty and deserving of being on a career highlights reel.

I thought we were incredibly unlucky with the ref at the scrum, breakdown and forward passes.

A very enjoyable watch. Enjoy it

Seemed to be an awfully long time before the referee gave Saints any credit at scrum time !

We home against Bulls?

Sorry, just saw we are at home against Bulls next Saturday at 3:00pm. Should be a great game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:07:17:59:35 by Saint Gordo.

Quote:

Saint Gordo
We home against Bulls?
Sorry, just saw we are at home against Bulls next Saturday at 3:00pm. Should be a great game.

That’ll be 3pm with you and 8pm local time
Wouldn’t want you to miss it

Quote:

Deesaint

Quote:

Saint Gordo
We home against Bulls?
Sorry, just saw we are at home against Bulls next Saturday at 3:00pm. Should be a great game.

That’ll be 3pm with you and 8pm local time
Wouldn’t want you to miss it

Sorry - yes - thanks!
I go bananas thinking in two time zones.

Congrats from a Munster fan just back in Ireland lads. Said it before but ye have a great team and please go on and try win that or at very least the prem now.

No complaints from us. Better team won and we just hadn't the answers for the power ye had. We had injuries bit don't think they'd have made a difference.

Quote:

MunsterMagicician
Congrats from a Munster fan just back in Ireland lads. Said it before but ye have a great team and please go on and try win that or at very least the prem now.
No complaints from us. Better team won and we just hadn't the answers for the power ye had. We had injuries bit don't think they'd have made a difference.

You're a gentleman, sir!

Quote:

NGSB
Seemed to be an awfully long time before the referee gave Saints any credit at scrum time !

There were a couple of scrums where we shoved tham back a lot, but no penalty came. I said to SWMBO that we were building towards a scrum penalty, and then we picked up that crucial late one.

Performance on the pitch- not our sharpest, but still very good in places. The quality of some of the passing and finishing was excellent as per. Defence generally very good. Breakdown discipline a work on and we do look better with Pearson - hope he is not out too long. Munster played quite well for much of the game but our bench depth and superior back play were significant.

Crowd excellent - both sets of supporters. Munster fans are a great bunch. But I think we comfortably outsang them and maintained home advantage throughout. Fantastic afternoon. Let's maintain he noise next week



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2024:04:08:09:30:46 by St Marcus.

Quote:

shendy

Quote:

NGSB
Seemed to be an awfully long time before the referee gave Saints any credit at scrum time !

There were a couple of scrums where we shoved tham back a lot, but no penalty came. I said to SWMBO that we were building towards a scrum penalty, and then we picked up that crucial late one.

Getting pushed back in the scrum is not an offence. Thought they did well getting the ball away under extreme pressure. There lack of quality replacements in the front row was certainly a factor late on in the game. Credit to Saints they exploited that very well.

Indeed Ajack, but penalties often (usually?) come when a scrum implodes. And the scrum is pretty much the only place where you concede a penalty for being outplayed!
Did the Munster prop (tight-head?) play the whole game? Presumably they didn't want to play the youngster unless they absolutely had to, and fatigue must have been an issue late in the game - in the scrum and in defence.

Quote:

shendy
Indeed Ajack, but penalties often (usually?) come when a scrum implodes. And the scrum is pretty much the only place where you concede a penalty for being outplayed!
Did the Munster prop (tight-head?) play the whole game? Presumably they didn't want to play the youngster unless they absolutely had to, and fatigue must have been an issue late in the game - in the scrum and in defence.

I’m struggling to think when a team is pushing a team back at a rate of knots a scrum penalty was consistently not given by the ref. A learning point for the team. If the come across this again then our prop on the other side from the ref simply needs to stop pushing once we are clearly going forwards and the scrum will wheel forcing the ref the give the penalty.

Quote:

Saint Maul

Quote:

shendy
Indeed Ajack, but penalties often (usually?) come when a scrum implodes. And the scrum is pretty much the only place where you concede a penalty for being outplayed!
Did the Munster prop (tight-head?) play the whole game? Presumably they didn't want to play the youngster unless they absolutely had to, and fatigue must have been an issue late in the game - in the scrum and in defence.

I’m struggling to think when a team is pushing a team back at a rate of knots a scrum penalty was consistently not given by the ref. A learning point for the team. If the come across this again then our prop on the other side from the ref simply needs to stop pushing once we are clearly going forwards and the scrum will wheel forcing the ref the give the penalty.

Provided you don't change the height of the scrum ie stand up or drop it, going back in a straight line is not an offence. If however you deliberately wheel the scrum that is an offence so would be a penalty against Saints in the situation you describe.

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

Saint Maul

Quote:

shendy
Indeed Ajack, but penalties often (usually?) come when a scrum implodes. And the scrum is pretty much the only place where you concede a penalty for being outplayed!
Did the Munster prop (tight-head?) play the whole game? Presumably they didn't want to play the youngster unless they absolutely had to, and fatigue must have been an issue late in the game - in the scrum and in defence.

I’m struggling to think when a team is pushing a team back at a rate of knots a scrum penalty was consistently not given by the ref. A learning point for the team. If the come across this again then our prop on the other side from the ref simply needs to stop pushing once we are clearly going forwards and the scrum will wheel forcing the ref the give the penalty.

Only if caught. Hence saying start the wheel on the side opposite the ref. V hard to detect when a scrum is going backwards that the side in the ascendancy is wheeling. Ultimately, if the ref won’t give a penalty if you push back at a rate of knots then it’s figuring how to force his hand. Winning rugby if pushing the rules to the limit.
Provided you don't change the height of the scrum ie stand up or drop it, going back in a straight line is not an offence. If however you deliberately wheel the scrum that is an offence so would be a penalty against Saints in the situation you describe.

Quite possibly what saved Munster a few times at the scrum was that the ball pinged out fairly quickly rather than the scrum continuing!

Quote:

Saint Maul

Quote:

ajack

Quote:

Saint Maul

Quote:

shendy
Indeed Ajack, but penalties often (usually?) come when a scrum implodes. And the scrum is pretty much the only place where you concede a penalty for being outplayed!
Did the Munster prop (tight-head?) play the whole game? Presumably they didn't want to play the youngster unless they absolutely had to, and fatigue must have been an issue late in the game - in the scrum and in defence.

I’m struggling to think when a team is pushing a team back at a rate of knots a scrum penalty was consistently not given by the ref. A learning point for the team. If the come across this again then our prop on the other side from the ref simply needs to stop pushing once we are clearly going forwards and the scrum will wheel forcing the ref the give the penalty.

Only if caught. Hence saying start the wheel on the side opposite the ref. V hard to detect when a scrum is going backwards that the side in the ascendancy is wheeling. Ultimately, if the ref won’t give a penalty if you push back at a rate of knots then it’s figuring how to force his hand. Winning rugby if pushing the rules to the limit.
Provided you don't change the height of the scrum ie stand up or drop it, going back in a straight line is not an offence. If however you deliberately wheel the scrum that is an offence so would be a penalty against Saints in the situation you describe.

Yes obviously only if the ref sees it or even then decides to act on it. Anyone who has played front row or has a good understanding of the laws could ping either side in any scrum it is never like one side is squeaky clean and the other doing everything wrong. It really comes down to if the ref feels it has effected the outcome enough to award a penalty or free kick.

It might well have happened but I cannot remember there being a reset where Munster were going back at a rate of knots so getting the ball away quickly and basically not committing an offence meant there was no reason to penalise them.

There are certainly refs and teams that see the scrum as a penalty machine but I am not sure that makes for a better game or spectacle.

I thought once again we were treated to an exceptionally good game of rugby and while much of the credit must go to both sides the ref also plays a big part in that. I actually find it sad after two such great games as we have seen in the last two weeks the whining about the refs is still such a common thing.

If people are raising valid points it is not whining.

Shendy,

Yes Archer (Munster TH) at 36 went the Full 80 !

Apparently there was more illness in the Munster camp as well as Snyman. To their credit they didn’t make a big fuss about it.
One of the players effected was Tadhg Beirne which considering his performance is unreal!

Hey ajack

I’m viewing the ref discussion more as an important learning point for how we need to be better in the future rather sour grapes.

My first post just after the game was an immediate impression where I posted I thought we were unlucky with the ref.

My reflection since then is we weren’t unlucky. Instead we weren’t smart and did not adapt to the ref. It was clear the players didn’t understand how this ref referees and yet the Munster players did and they made the most of how he officiates.

That highlights two learning points to me. Firstly, the coaches need to make sure in Europe that the players understand how a particular referee that the players are not familiar with refs. The team really should practice the week before with officiating that reflects that ref and emphasising the traps not to fall into and the areas that can be pushed or exploited with that ref. Secondly, on field leaders need to be assessing and communicating to all the team in breaks this is what the ref is doing and this is how we need to adjust. I didn’t see us change, our players just looked puzzled by what the ref was deciding. The ref isn’t going to change. The best teams are the ones that can adapt to the ref.

If we want to progress further we need to learn this lesson quickly IMHO.

I would add that Munster have had Mike Adamson as a referee in the URC, so they would at least be familiar with him whereas Saints would not, or at least not much.

Mathieu Raynal has been appointed for the Saints v Bulls game so the team really need to understand how he officiates and plan how to adapt in advance.

He’s a ref who is on record saying he likes to assert his authority early in the game. He’s also not afraid to card people. He also strikes me as rewarding scrum dominance. So a 6/2 bench might be wise.

The learn your ref is a good lesson. The other lesson from this match was we gave up too much possession. I'm confident that the coaching team will have taken these and other points on board.
I think a benefit of having a union virgin in Lee Radford is that he will always be looking to learn and will not overlook matters that other coaches may take as just the way things are.