Saints v Bath 18th May 2024 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:24:09:14:52 by Saint Ted.

Hutch at 10 is interesting, although he has played there before and done pretty well. Has he started at 10 in the Prem before though?
Might leave us a bit weak for place-kicking though.

Not a bad team - shows we have depth, and the depth is all tried and tested. The most inexperience is the replacement backs.

You've earned the right but I'd suggest that's pretty much gifting Bath the win which is disappointing for what should be such a great fixture.
I guess you fancied Bath at FG for your SF?
That said playing Hutchinson at 10 makes a lot of sense in terms of testing cover and it's great to see Pearson back.
Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:17:13:49:21 by OldMarovian.

I would have preferred Savala to start with Rory in the centre alongside Beef.

But not a bad selection all in all.

This will be a real test of the quality of our squad depth and our systems. Great to see Hutch and Pearson back fit and were I a Bath supporter I’d be worried this is a banana skin if not taken seriously. There a lot of lads who would like to be playing again this season so there will be 23 Saints hands up and waving at the coaches.

That's not a team who'll lose 90-0. I fancy a close game. Rory knows Russell and Redpath which may have influenced the 10 selection.

I am not surprised by that selection. Must be nearly a fully fit squad! (Apart from Braley)

Hope the gamble of giving majority of First XV two weeks off pays off!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:17:12:59:12 by tigersimon.

It’s a massive credit to our coaches that despite almost all of the starting 15 being rested that the selection still looks like a genuinely competitive side. I’d expect Bath to win as they have to win when we don’t and they are at home. But players selected will desperately want to impress so they can be part of the semi and hopefully final.

The goal is to win the final and whilst there is a risk of being under-cooked for the semi-final I’d agree resting our starting 15 maximises our final chances. No risk of injuries or reds to starters for a result that has no bearing on whether we get a home semi or not. It looks likely we will go into the semi able to pick our very best side and injuries playing no part which is fantastic.

A home semi-final in warm weather with a first-choice 15 raring to go is a wonderful position to be in.

Slots are up for grabs next season so I’m hoping to see strong showings from those selected.

Toby Thame not a name I recognise?

Perhaps some mind games in play.

If Bath win, we're likely to play them again in the Semi, although we'll have had another week to see how their first team play whilst Bath will have had a games experience against our side that they are unlikely to face.

Bath also HAVE to win. They will expect to beat our rotated side, at home and HAVE to win to secure a playoff spot. All the pressure is on them! How they deal with the mental aspect of it will be as much of a test.

Less bluster maybe? Bath don't have to win. A single bonus point will guarantee a play off place. Otherwise they can get 0 points from this game and provided Sarries beat Sale at StoneX, they'll be through regardless.

They nearly beat you twice this season at FG, so any potential SF will be close fought.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:17:13:25:23 by NorthShark.

Quote:

tigersimon
Toby Thame not a name I recognise?

Local lad coming up through the academy.

we need 1 point to secure top spot so not sure why we are preempting a Saints v Bath semi final. that side is perfectly capable of at least getting close enough for a losing BP and/or a try BP. Im sure the coaches are in no way seeing this as gifting Bath anything. i'm also pretty sure given the time spent on top of the league they will not be surrendering that lightly. Id fancy come 5ish on Saturday we still finish top and it will be a Sarries v Bath semi and we have whoever ends up in 4th. To be honest I really don't think it matters who the semi final opponents are, all the teams in the mix will be tough to beat so home advantage is key which we have already secured.

Not a bad bench forwards wise considering who we have rested, I was quite impressed with Thame pre season.

Quote:

Walks11
we need 1 point to secure top spot so not sure why we are preempting a Saints v Bath semi final. that side is perfectly capable of at least getting close enough for a losing BP and/or a try BP. Im sure the coaches are in no way seeing this as gifting Bath anything. i'm also pretty sure given the time spent on top of the league they will not be surrendering that lightly. Id fancy come 5ish on Saturday we still finish top and it will be a Sarries v Bath semi and we have whoever ends up in 4th. To be honest I really don't think it matters who the semi final opponents are, all the teams in the mix will be tough to beat so home advantage is key which we have already secured.
Not a bad bench forwards wise considering who we have rested, I was quite impressed with Thame pre season.

You need 2 points to finish top, assuming Sarries get 5 vs Sale at home, not 1.

So a squad for SF , where ‘/‘ have been used, player named first is my likely pick but certainly some competition in Back Row and Centres/Wings

Furbank
Hendy
Freeman
Dingwall
Sleightholme

Smith
Mitchell

Waller
Langdon
Davison
Moon
Coles
Lawes
Ludlam/Pearson/Graham/ASY
Augustus

Matavesi
Iyogun/Haffar
Millar Mills
Mayanavanua
Pearson/Graham/ASY

James
Hutch/Burger/Litchfield
Ramm/Seabrook

Quote:

NorthShark

Quote:

Walks11
we need 1 point to secure top spot so not sure why we are preempting a Saints v Bath semi final. that side is perfectly capable of at least getting close enough for a losing BP and/or a try BP. Im sure the coaches are in no way seeing this as gifting Bath anything. i'm also pretty sure given the time spent on top of the league they will not be surrendering that lightly. Id fancy come 5ish on Saturday we still finish top and it will be a Sarries v Bath semi and we have whoever ends up in 4th. To be honest I really don't think it matters who the semi final opponents are, all the teams in the mix will be tough to beat so home advantage is key which we have already secured.
Not a bad bench forwards wise considering who we have rested, I was quite impressed with Thame pre season.

You need 2 points to finish top, assuming Sarries get 5 vs Sale at home, not 1.

Correct - if we end up level on points with Sarries they finish top. Same number of wins and they have a better points difference. And of course for Sarries to be level on points means we lose and they win, in which case we cannot close the PD gap.

Quote:

tigersimon
So a squad for SF , where ‘/‘ have been used, player named first is my likely pick but certainly some competition in Back Row and Centres/Wings
Furbank
Hendy
Freeman
Dingwall
Sleightholme

Smith
Mitchell

Waller
Langdon
Davison
Moon
Coles
Lawes
Ludlam/Pearson/Graham/ASY
Augustus

Matavesi
Iyogun/Haffar
Millar Mills
Mayanavanua
Pearson/Graham/ASY

James
Hutch/Burger/Litchfield
Ramm/Seabrook

For me we need to have Burger or Seabrook on the park as they have a hard edge that is still missing at times.

Interesting Saints lineup. All replacements from the Gloucester match are starting on Saturday. But only two starters from the Gloucester match are retained in the starting XV. All that said, it's obviously not Saints best lineup, see especially Tom James at 9 and Hutchinson's first ever Premiership start at fly half, but this lineup is still pretty good.

I would wager Saints have a puncher's chance here. If the halfbacks are competitive then we have a game. If not, then doom on us.

I really can't believe there's so many people writing this team off (not necessarily here). The only big risk I see is Rory at 10, but he's a very confident player and skilful too. I'm sure I remember him kicking for the Wanderers back in the days where Jim wouldn't select him in the first team much. Hits the ball very sweetly off the tee. I do wonder why you'd have Savala as understudy to Rory, though.

I would have loved to have seen Pollock start this one, but sadly didn't get my wish. Even so, seeing a backline containing Crispy, Burger, Litchfield and Ollie - wow, that is some physicality. Bath will know they've been in a game. Then you have a fairly mobile pack, Lewis coming back, Pearson on the bench. Tom James starting is a real plus and he always performs.

Bayliss always seems to do well when they play us. Got some legs on him. But, still, I think we're in this.

Interesting selection
Clear that the forwards asked for a rest
And fairly obvious who will start in the semi final

Only worries
Locks - need to step up a level from previous appearances

Will Hutch be even more unpredictable than Russell

Hopefully TJ can stay on for as close to the full 80 as possible

Will Ollie outshine Cokanasiga

I think this will be close

The big question for me is whether giving (almost) everyone a rest will pay off come the SFs or will Saints be under-cooked?
Tbh I think it's a mistake to have rotated so heavily especially as there's a week off next week but I don't get paid the big bucks and Dowson and Co seem to have done alright with their calls to date!!

Great points. I think the only other thing to watch is how much Bath send Ollie Lawrence down the channel at Hutch or Litchfield. I think Litchfield will be all right once he gets hit once or twice. But I hope Hutch receives some help.. I also hope Dowson keeps sending Burger and Litchfield down the Finn Russell channel. Sauce for the goose.

I may have been tempted to go in stronger but they’ve been brave and pragmatic with this selection. Home semi confirmed, earnt the right to rotate and no need to take risks.

This team will be pumped and fighting for places which may be more of a motivation than the all the big guns starting. Risk of injury, suspension and concussion to a crucial player would have a huge impact on the semi and potential final.

It was interesting to note that before the teams were announced Saints were 2/1 to win. After the announcement they went to 4/1.

What is Savala thinking when he sees Rory at 10 while he's on the bench?

Quote:

ramseysaint
What is Savala thinking when he sees Rory at 10 while he's on the bench?

Hutchinson, like Ludlam, Pearson and Odendall is a potential knockout game player returning from injury in need of match time. Savala knows that.

Quote:

Santiago

Quote:

ramseysaint
What is Savala thinking when he sees Rory at 10 while he's on the bench?

Hutchinson, like Ludlam, Pearson and Odendall is a potential knockout game player returning from injury in need of match time. Savala knows that.

Hutchinson does step in at first receiver during open play from time to time. He has the vision (sometimes too much vision) and skills of an attacking 10. Plus it is not as if Saints haven't trained for this eventuality, though a whole match at 10 is different. All that said, I like this an an option, though his defending the 10 channel will make me just a tad nervous. But, If we don't try something like this, we will never know. If this works out, Saints have more options going into next season.
Hutchinson has stepped in at fullback in the past, so I think his offensive skill set is very flexible. A very different type of player, but still flexible in the way James Wilson was for us: Simply plug him in different positions and watch him manage competently and professionally.

Interesting seeing lots of rivals not only criticising our selection akin to Gloucester last week but also suggesting we’ve given the game to Bath. Completely ignoring the fact these guys are playing for realistically 10 shirts for a semi and potential final (7,8 14 + bench).

Will be a ver interesting game. I just hope the defence doesn’t disintegrate.

Hutch/Savala - With a player returning from a longer injury absence it’s sometimes easier to control their match time starting them?

Quote:

Stevie Myler's right boot
Interesting seeing lots of rivals not only criticising our selection akin to Gloucester last week but also suggesting we’ve given the game to Bath. Completely ignoring the fact these guys are playing for realistically 10 shirts for a semi and potential final (7,8 14 + bench).

In all fairness we are doing exactly the same as Gloucester in the fact we are not fielding our strongest team in a match of limited importance. I doubt Gloucester expected the sort of stuffing they got but if you are heavily beaten and field a team like that you have to expect some flak.

Bath are a good side playing their last game at home in what is pretty much a must win game for them. Even putting out our cup final side it is far from a foregone conclusion we would have won and equally the side we are sending may win as well.

Opinion on here as to what sort of side we should have sent is clearly divided but it seems pretty much everyone understands you need to rotate to keep players fresh and give game time to players who need it.

On the Glos selection comparison It seems to me that Skivington had no credible second team but Dowson does.

(I hope I'm not eating my words in a few hours time!!)

Quote:

Santiago
On the Glos selection comparison It seems to me that Skivington had no credible second team but Dowson does.
(I hope I'm not eating my words in a few hours time!!)

Agreed. It's not a "cup final" team but these are pretty much all people who have had and justify having starts. It just unusual to have them all start. Quite different to the inexperience Glaws fielded, IMO.
Bath will not put 90 points on us. If they do, I will cycle naked through Bristol.

Let's be blunt. If you send out a team missing almost all you XV that isn't rotation (in the conventional sense) it's sending a B team.
I don't think anyone disputes you've earned the right or that those picked will do their best but let's not pretend it's other than it is.
That said IF you beat Bath then the team will be heroes and Dowdon a genius 😀

Quote:

Stevie Myler's right boot
Interesting seeing lots of rivals not only criticising our selection akin to Gloucester last week but also suggesting we’ve given the game to Bath. Completely ignoring the fact these guys are playing for realistically 10 shirts for a semi and potential final (7,8 14 + bench).

I looked at a few recent matchday squads and 10-12 of these players were present in the 23 and played against Tigers, Saracens, Munster, and Leinster, some from the bench but others as starters. Some of the injury returnees playing today may have boosted those numbers further.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:12:33:08 by Matthew.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Let's be blunt. If you send out a team missing almost all you XV that isn't rotation (in the conventional sense) it's sending a B team.
I don't think anyone disputes you've earned the right or that those picked will do their best but let's not pretend it's other than it is.
That said IF you beat Bath then the team will be heroes and Dowdon a genius 😀

Sure. Our starting 15 are rested bar Ludlam/Pearson who are returning from injury and Sleightholme who probably asked to start to help his try tally aiming for the highest tries for the season award.

Equally the team Saints have selected is not like the team Gloucester sent out last weekend. It’s a competitive side. From memory, apart from Lockett, all the starting 15 have started Premiership games this season.

I get the frustration. If Sarries lose and Bath win then Sarries are away in the semis. But like you say we’ve earned it. Frankly Sarries should win at home v Sale if they are top 2 worthy.

I suspect it won’t affect final standings and Saints and Sarries have a home semi and Bath are away. These have been the top 3 teams over the course of the season.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:12:36:57 by Saint Maul.

Anybdy else having issue where the streaming keeps stopping on TNT red button?

Quote:

Saintlyg
Anybdy else having issue where the streaming keeps stopping on TNT red button?

Yes absolute dog @#$%&

Final round of the season, perfect time for a broadcaster to allow carp coverage!

Terrible coverage. Absolute amateur hour!

Is there a live table anywhere?

Not sure whats worse, the coverage or saints first 25 mins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:15:33:55 by herbie85.

Getting to the point of tv going out the window for two reasons, TNT absolutely useless and thinking that by putting an apology that it’s going off every minute or so is adequate. No wonder they lost so many subscribers

I get that it doesn’t matter, but why not take our chance for 3 points? Take the game seriously and don’t get nilled

We just ignoring burger getting tackled without the ball?

Putting the pressure onto ourselves by some silly mistakes and some short passes

25 m from their line, penalty and can only put it 10 m from the try line ????



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:15:44:15 by JohnI.

How many penalties before a yellow ref???? 6 in a row

Thanks TNT, didn't want to see that score.

Commentators must live in Bath.

Boy, the final round half time scores are interesting, “anything can happen in the next half hour” (thankyou Stingray!)

Poor coverage with the breaks in transmission. Saints losing basically due to a couple of kicking errors. Second half could be fun if Saints continue to settle.

Just wish Tom James would get the ball out without telling other people what to do.

Well that can’t have been the good half so let’s see

According to commentary, it's all Bath. 17-5 suggests we're still in it. In fairness, Bath should be winning. Arguably their Cup Final side, perhaps with Barbery against our very much 2nd team.

Hutch's 1st game at 10 this year against a £1m a year Lions player.
Litchfield is still on an Academy contract, as is Lockett.

Bath should expect to be a lot further ahead.

We'd have score much sooner had it not for their repeated foul play.

Quote:

NGSB
Well that can’t have been the good half so let’s see

We'd have loved to have seen but TNT had other plans.

I get the amount of changes has an influence, but all of the lads out there have a good chunk of first team experience. We've been very poor, to the point where we are not competing for routine high balls. Look very much second best even against 14.

Lots of worrying aspects if we do play bath again, scrum being one of them.

Commentary not exactly balanced………

Quote:

herbie85
Lots of worrying aspects if we do play bath again, scrum being one of them.

I disagree. Bring in Waller/ Haffar, Langdon, Davison, Coles, Moon, Lawes, Augustus... that's one hell of a rested scrum.

Not once but twice interceptions, only saving grace is that Sale are well up on Saracens

Offside rule doesn’t seemingly apply to Spencer. That said, overall the Hutch at 10 experiment is not one to repeat. Hope we don’t go under from here, given impact on our momentum (and theirs)

Quote:

St Stokey.

Quote:

herbie85
Lots of worrying aspects if we do play bath again, scrum being one of them.

I disagree. Bring in Waller/ Haffar, Langdon, Davison, Coles, Moon, Lawes, Augustus... that's one hell of a rested scrum.

I get your point, but our usual bench front row have been pretty much destroyed at times in that first half, also in defensive mauls. Concerns me personally but you may well be right. With our bench second row, and arguably two thirds of our first choice back row or close to it. Been an exercise in demonstrating how valuable a decent ten is, hutch is a great player who I rate in the centre, but don't think he's troubling fin or furbs for regular game time at 10. Shame as I was hoping this game could have been closer.

Scrums are more than just the front row. An enormous amount of power will come from locks and 8.

Bath will have prepared for our 2nd team whereas we have more knowledge of the team we will hope to play in the final.

We also have game time in our returning players and extra minutes for out academy players.

Next time we face Bath will be in the final so we'll be equally up to speed.

If the basics aren’t there this is what happens. So many changes and there is little fluency in their play. Mistakes are killing us in this game, Sale still doing us a favour and a Saints v Saracens Bath v Sale semi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:16:58:08 by JohnI.

We need more strength in depth at 9 and 10 plus a couple of other areas. Hutch shouldn't have been thrown in at 10 after a month or so off. Don't rate MacParland either.

Very poor performance from us, we should be competing better than this with a weakened side. Seriously needs addressing for next season

Quote:

St Stokey.
Scrums are more than just the front row. An enormous amount of power will come from locks and 8.
Bath will have prepared for our 2nd team whereas we have more knowledge of the team we will hope to play in the final.

We also have game time in our returning players and extra minutes for out academy players.

Next time we face Bath will be in the final so we'll be equally up to speed.

Agree about the locks, although I would like to think you aren't giving too much away with lockett and temu, from Coles/moon in terms of power. Again purely in my humble opinion Graham arguably would be our first choice 8, certainly earlier in the season, or at least within the 23.. But the proof will be in the pudding, if we are switched on in the semi final and for the final then happy days and it then looks a good plan.

A little uncomfortable with the second team tag, a lot of lads out there are in our normal 23, lots with a good deal of prem experience. This wasn't a 15 similar to what Gloucester put out and I'm slightly surprised at the gap, certainly most on here seemed to think it would be a closer game.

Sarries

Looks like it! Bring it on!

Does anyone know about the process for refunds from TNT?

Quote:

Happywifehappylife
Sarries

Decent record against them this season. Let's hope it continues!

Granted, a little disappointed but relatively comfortable with the result. Lockett, Thame, Litchfield and possibly McParland. All academy, still growing, still developing. Next season they'll be better players to today's experience. McParland much better today than his last outing. We've got minutes into those returning from injury too.

Only thing I'm disappointed in today is the lack of carriers from Pearson. Perhaps he needs to write the rest of the season and restart next.

Biggest result today is that we don't have to play Bristol or Quins.

That last try was important - our points difference over bath was 4 points. Without it we'd have finished second.

Quote:

Santiago
That last try was important - our points difference over bath was 4 points. Without it we'd have finished second.

Nope. We had more wins, and that was the tie breaker.

Quote:

Santiago
That last try was important - our points difference over bath was 4 points. Without it we'd have finished second.

No of wins (Saints 12/Bath 11) comes before PDs

Interesting Semi Final!

How much have Saints learnt this season from Croke Park etc.

Will Saracens be too Street Wise?

Well I’m very happy the way the results have worked out with a Saints v Bath final statistically most likely given three quarters of semis are won by the home side.

We’ve beaten Sarries home and away already. They got spanked in Europe and failed to win at home in their crucial final game. They will still be dangerous with some big game players. But they have looked more vulnerable this season. As Mark McCall said after the Sale defeat Sarries were out-enthused by Sale. Not something you’d have said often in the past but that has been a suspicion in a few games this season.

I’m smiling at how our path has panned out. Certainly not counting any chickens but I’d fancy us v Bath in a final IF we both make it. We’ve got two weeks to prepare for what should be an epic game v Sarries. COYS!!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:05:18:17:27:53 by Saint Maul.

Excellent - the season is over and Saints have finished top.
Plus we know what this second XV group can do and where they need help.
Running out Hutch at 10 was an experiment which unfortunately didn't work, but it was logical to try and today was the perfect day for it.

I rather doubt we have the semi-finals which the tv network would probably want, but a Saints-Bath final would probably be attractive for them.

With all the various options that could have happened today I don't think I saw anyone seriously predict Sale winning at Sarries.
Are Sarries a bit past it now or will we face a backlash following a bit of a sub par performance?

Hopefully we bring a backlash following our less than standard performance.

Lots of positives imo.

Rested first XV. No more injuries. Lewis, Hutch, Pearson, Odendall, all back in the mix for selection for the Semi. Means we should have an extremely strong bench too. Bring on Sarries!

Gonna need a massive atmosphere!!

I knew that but somehow forgot it when I saw how close the points difference was

Very surprised Sarries lost so fair play to Sale. Didn’t see the game, are Sarries on the wane again?
Proper semi final now!! COYS

Also, Haffar is going to be some player!

Quote:

ajack
With all the various options that could have happened today I don't think I saw anyone seriously predict Sale winning at Sarries.
Are Sarries a bit past it now or will we face a backlash following a bit of a sub par performance?

I said this when we played them at home, they've lots of players past their prime, still dangerous nonetheless

See you in the SFs.
If we play like we did today you'll put up a cricket-score. Hoping we can make a proper game of it

Not worried about any of the other top four as I sincerely believe we can beat them all and of course if we can’t beat them all we don’t deserve the title. Having said that I would rather play Sarries at FG than Twickers so probably the best outcome today for us.
Today was a decision the coaches made with low risk and to protect the end game/s. We lost not because the players weren’t good enough but because they have rarely (or in some cases never) played together. Combinations and familiarity make successful teams and there was too little of both today and limited experience as well. Not to mention that we knew we may play Bath again so possible the coaches wanted to keep power dry in terms of game plan/moves and even things like maul defence - making it difficult for the team selected.
Still remain very positive and hopeful - and very proud of the clubs season whatever happens.

If we still had an A league we would have been able to give the likes of Rory and Burger a bit of competitive game time before letting them play after being out for weeks.

Good decision by Dowson to put out a mainly second team. The other three put out their A teams. Our A team has an extra weeks rest before the semi final.

Always a bit of a conundrum if rested is better than match fit and hardened.
Both certainly have there pluses and minuses.

Quote:

ajack
Always a bit of a conundrum if rested is better than match fit and hardened.
Both certainly have there pluses and minuses.

True, but if its good enough for Leinster its good enough for us. Top teams rest before big games. I don't like it but it must work, otherwise why would they?

I just hope we capitalise on the opportunity we have here. A team we have beaten this season at home? The bookies will favour us i expect.

Quote:

Duckonstilts
I just hope we capitalise on the opportunity we have here. A team we have beaten this season at home? The bookies will favour us i expect.

The bookies may but you can bet that the commentary team will have their usual Sarries love in. Any success we have will be due to the oppositions mistakes, not our ability.

Quote:

stoofer
Also, Haffar is going to be some player!

100% agree!!!

Good for England to, we have struggled to ffind the next generation of props and now so many turn up at once!

Way I see it, was job done!

The result didn’t matter, what counted was our second string tight five all got game time and protected our first choice front five

Lewis got much needed game time and again protected first choice back row, sorry imho Augustus starts, look at him in that game against Leinster!

Sadly think it to late for Pearson this season, he just won’t be match fit and can’t afford risk him on bench in case of early injury?

Hutchinson started at 10 to give him and Burger game time after injuries and decision was between Litchfield and Charlie S who started, coaches decided on Litchfield, so Rory went 10 n right decision an injury in next Cpl weeks and Litchfield may be needed, Charlie S is down pecking order.

I thought it was a clever squad selection, well done coaches

Quote:

Neil-H
Way I see it, was job done!
The result didn’t matter, what counted was our second string tight five all got game time and protected our first choice front five

Lewis got much needed game time and again protected first choice back row, sorry imho Augustus starts, look at him in that game against Leinster!

Sadly think it to late for Pearson this season, he just won’t be match fit and can’t afford risk him on bench in case of early injury?

Hutchinson started at 10 to give him and Burger game time after injuries and decision was between Litchfield and Charlie S who started, coaches decided on Litchfield, so Rory went 10 n right decision an injury in next Cpl weeks and Litchfield may be needed, Charlie S is down pecking order.

I thought it was a clever squad selection, well done coaches

If we win the semi final
It will be the best decision ever
If we lose it will be looked at as the worse

But you can’t say that afterwards DeeSaint, that’s hindsight?

You have to go on the here and now

I am saying, we didn’t get any first choice players injured this weekend…

We gave game time to those returning from injury and they came through and got that game time…

We now have almost a full squad to choose from

And yes if we lose, some will blame it on this game, but They don’t know if we may had an injury or two from it?

My opinion is based on the here and now

The records show the Saints never seem to do well after time off. I hope this does not happen against Sarries

Can't have it both ways. If we lost Fin Smith or Lawes yesterday you'd all be raging about it. I'd rather have a slightly rusty player on the field than an injured Smith or Lawes who don't even play. Correct decision yesterday, regardless of the semi final result.

An outsider’s viewpoint.

There was no right or wrong selection for yesterday and everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it’s what these forums are about!

For me by minimising the chances of injury to First XV players yesterday (can’t totally eradicate as training or warm up injuries can occur) yes there is a risk of being rusty for the Semi-Final. However this is the true test of the Coaches and Players in have they learnt from the Bristol
game about the first game back after a break. Have the players learnt from their experience at Croke Park etc.

As I mentioned on a previous post should you play Bath again this season I don’t think any psychological damage will have been done by yesterday’s result as it will be a vastly different XV.

Ok the experiment of Hutch at 10 wasn’t 100% successful and I can see the argument around why have Savala if we don’t start him, but Burger and Hutch have got some valuable Match Fitness!

Quote:

Neil-H
But you can’t say that afterwards DeeSaint, that’s hindsight?
You have to go on the here and now

I am saying, we didn’t get any first choice players injured this weekend…

We gave game time to those returning from injury and they came through and got that game time…

We now have almost a full squad to choose from

And yes if we lose, some will blame it on this game, but They don’t know if we may had an injury or two from it?

My opinion is based on the here and now

It was my thoughts at the start to have continuity, coupled with the coaches fact finding on the condition/fitness of the Team.

We had a full squad before the game.

I'm just nervous because history shows with this team that they take a match or two to get their game working.
That understanding could really have a few more ticks if our starting team had played 50/55 minutes against Bath.

We now have a weekend off, time to recover for everyone.

I can't agree with the 'they might have been injured' ; that can happen anytime, even warming up.
That's no basis to pick a team, otherwise we should rest our best players for the semi final, just in case we get to the final.

Anyway onto Saracens,

A bit of an odd one for me. If you view it as a game that didn't matter and the only important thing was avoiding injuries then hard to disagree it was positive.

However if that was the case why risk the likes of the front row who are all likely to be either starters or on the bench depending on how the coaches see starting verses finishing?

If momentum, pride or call it what you want was important then pretty mixed not a humiliation but we weren't really competitive either. In a way maybe losing with what was basically a second string side is better than losing with a stronger side which may well have happened anyway but equally might not.

The coaches have done a good job overall this season and hard to see this as a disaster but equally not sure it was a great success either.

The next two games define the season for me, Europe was always a huge ask from where we have been over the last few years but champions of England is within our grasp.

I've said before I think there's no definitive answer re the right approach (other than one vindicated by a win!) but in potential Saints will be putting out an XV/23 m0st of whom have been off (including on holidays) over the fortnight before the game and Bath will be fielding an XV/23 that as played two very easy games.

Quote:

Deesaint

Quote:

Neil-H
But you can’t say that afterwards DeeSaint, that’s hindsight?
You have to go on the here and now

I am saying, we didn’t get any first choice players injured this weekend…

We gave game time to those returning from injury and they came through and got that game time…

We now have almost a full squad to choose from

And yes if we lose, some will blame it on this game, but They don’t know if we may had an injury or two from it?

My opinion is based on the here and now

It was my thoughts at the start to have continuity, coupled with the coaches fact finding on the condition/fitness of the Team.

We had a full squad before the game.

I'm just nervous because history shows with this team that they take a match or two to get their game working.
That understanding could really have a few more ticks if our starting team had played 50/55 minutes against Bath.

We now have a weekend off, time to recover for everyone.

I can't agree with the 'they might have been injured' ; that can happen anytime, even warming up.
That's no basis to pick a team, otherwise we should rest our best players for the semi final, just in case we get to the final.

Anyway onto Saracens,

That makes no sense. Clearly by not picking them it reduced and negated the chances of any injury withstanding "warm ups" etc.
And clearly the semi final is a different kettle of fish compared to an end of season dead rubber where the only thing we could have picked up was... injuries. Won or lost we would have come top, won or lost we would have played 4th, now we just have a fully fit Gun 23 available. Sensible.

That’s only true with hindsight, had sarries won we would have finished second. I’m personally with Dee on this, we aren’t good after a break, hopefully we’ll be able to train with the intensity required to come out the blocks flying. Dows knows what he’s doing, but this is one that makes me nervous.

To be going into a semi final with your Gun 23 fit and fresh is an absolute luxury, hobbling in to the semi's with key players out or having come up just short (with a first team) at Bath would've been deflating. Instead we go in with 25/26 fresh bodies. Luxury.

I don't think anyone sees having a fully fit squad, or at least very near to one as anything other than a good thing.

Where people do seem to have different opinions is if going in match sharp is more or less important than the risk of picking up injuries.

In the Sarries V Sale game Sean Maitland pulled out with what looks like a serious injury during the pre match warm up. Would it therefore be wise not to warm up before the game or indeed train between now and the semi final?

Dowse will be judged by hindsight. If we win the semi then resting players is a brilliant call and our players are better-rested with fewer injuries/niggles to be ideally-prepared for the final. If we lose the semi, it suggests we were under-cooked and it back-fired resting players v Bath. The best coaches have the foresight and sometimes the luck to get these calls right.

I suspect most of us that advocated the rest players approach that Dowse went with v Bath, like myself, recognise it is a bit of a gamble and there are legitimate pros and cons of both approaches. It goes to show how hard Dowse’s job is. He could only choose one option and either way it was going to split opinions of fans.

Fingers crossed Dowse has got it right, like he has with so many decisions since he took charge. For good or bad, it’s done now and only time will tell.

Well Dowse was in the side that lost out to Leinster because they ran out of steam in the second half, largely because they’d been played into the ground at the end of the season

Quote:

Sir Hector
Well Dowse was in the side that lost out to Leinster because they ran out of steam in the second half, largely because they’d been played into the ground at the end of the season

I think the thought that players become rusty/under-cooked if they have a couple of weeks off is overplayed and more so when

Of course players need time to get to match fitness and mental sharpness when coming back from injury, but 2-3 weeks off will do nothing to reduce physical fitness if a player is already in good shape. It will actually make them fitter/fresher.

Perhaps the mental side can be affected in 2 ways. Firstly by being so focussed on one game in a few weeks time, players can get overwhelmed. Secondly, players can be too relaxed and lose focus resulting in the important game being an unfortunate wake up call. Both of those points should be covered by a team psychologist who Saints must have in some capacity.

Finally, a lack of team cohesion could be expected. But looking at the examples potentially given like the Bristol game, was that a gun XV playing a game they had to win? The away teams seen to have done badly this year.

Hindsight will be the judge, but if a team like Saints with the experience the players have gained this season (can’t beat a “what could have been” result away to Leinster in a Euro SF for learning about oneself) and talent it has are not able to getting back into the right frame of mind and play cohesive rugby from the first minute of a domestic home SF, then how can anyone believe that is is possible to learn from experience. The players have felt what failure looks like at the very top level of club rugby is. That’s the best lesson they can ever learn

And as another poster said, if it’s good enough for Leinster

Quote:

Sir Hector
Well Dowse was in the side that lost out to Leinster because they ran out of steam in the second half, largely because they’d been played into the ground at the end of the season

Is this the reason why we lost the final? Or is this just being used to justify the decision. Is there any real evidence for this being the reason? Did Leinster have the luxury of rotation as they do now that many years ago? Has conditioning not moved on over a decade later? Did we have such a youthful team then?

On a different note. As someone who went to the game at Bath I would struggle to justify the expenditure in future seasons to attend away games if their is potential for so many changes are being made, especially in a season with less games than normal. When the narrative this season has been a big effort is need from the fans I feel it was disrespectful to make so many changes for the supporters that went to Bath. I would be interested to see what team would have been put out for a home game.

With hindsight, it will be interesting how Gloucester fair resting for the penultimate game and going stronger in their home game before their final.

Quote:

Awaywin
Is this the reason why we lost the final? Or is this just being used to justify the decision. Is there any real evidence for this being the reason? Did Leinster have the luxury of rotation as they do now that many years ago? Has conditioning not moved on over a decade later? Did we have such a youthful team then?

We had pretty much the same starting 15 (except for the internationl windows) for every game that year. If they were fit (and sometimes if they weren't) the same players played. They were running on fumes.

We’d also played 7 extra matches compared to where we are now and we didn’t have a huge nearly two month mid season break that season.

As a Bath fan I was resigned to an away S/final v Sarries before the weekend matches were played. I was encouraged by your selection for our game but never thought Sale would beat Sarries nor prevent them gaining a point. That result changed everything for all of us. I would like to see a Bath/Saints final so best wishes to you v Sarries, it will be a stern test, Sale are a bit of a bogey side for us but a little less so at home.

Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

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Dylan has stated specifically that they lost that game to Leinster because they were all running on empty. The season had been grueling and they had nothing left. (His concussion probably didn’t help either!)