Saints v Gloucester 30th November 2024 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:12:06:08:32:08 by Saint Ted.

Great to see
Davidson Coles and Augustus back
As well as Mitchell and Dingwall on the bench

Gloucester will not be easy
Nothing like last season 😳

Need to win this one

Gloucester have named a good looking side, I can see this as being anything but an easy 5 pointer. Great to see some of the prem cup lads retained, nice to see a strong bench too and especially the return of Mitchell. Fingers crossed he’s good and ready!

Interesting to see West start ahead of Manny. Possibly an attempt to gain the upper hand in the scrum early on and add more mobility in the second half. The bench is looking pretty exciting.

We seem to be managing game time across the squad nicely, not rushing all of our internationals back at the same time. Allowing Mayanavanua and Millar-Mills some rest, easing Mitchell and Fraser back in from the bench. That gives me a lot of confidence that we'll finish this season strongly. As does the shortening injury list.

For those of us that aren't able to be at the gardens does anyone know if this is on TV?

TNT extra and disc+

Thanks Chris, red button it is!

A couple of interesting games this evening! Bristol winning well at Quinns and Falcons hanging on to beat Sarries!

There’s some genuine quality in that Gloucester side with the likes of Wade, Anscombe and Mercerand Harris and Ackermann on the bench isn’t too shoddy either.

We desperately need 5 point. Where a home win isn’t the gimme it would have been last season.

Quote:

Sir Hector
A couple of interesting games this evening! Bristol winning well at Quinns and Falcons hanging on to beat Sarries!

I watched Falcons, Ethan Grayson at 15 goes off injured and Radwan comes on for a stunning try with his fisrt touch. Odd game management with the last kick of the game, Falcons had a penalty infront of the posts to deny Saracens a bonus point but chose to kick it dead



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:11:30:11:58:37 by Santiago.

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Santiago

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Sir Hector
A couple of interesting games this evening! Bristol winning well at Quinns and Falcons hanging on to beat Sarries!

I watched Falcons, Ethan Grayson at 15 goes off injured and Radwan comes on for a stunning try with his fisrt touch. Odd game management with the last kick of the game, Falcons had a penalty infront of the posts to deny Saracens a bonus point but chose to kick it dead

Actually, I think the correct logical decision. If they kick for goal there is a chance the ball stays in play and Saracens go the length and score. 4 points then becomes 1. Also, they think, almost certainly correctly, that come seasons end it will not be Saracens they are competing with for position, so whether or not Saracens get a point is irrelevant Newcastle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:11:30:12:21:37 by St. Andy.

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St. Andy

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Santiago

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Sir Hector
A couple of interesting games this evening! Bristol winning well at Quinns and Falcons hanging on to beat Sarries!

I watched Falcons, Ethan Grayson at 15 goes off injured and Radwan comes on for a stunning try with his fisrt touch. Odd game management with the last kick of the game, Falcons had a penalty infront of the posts to deny Saracens a bonus point but chose to kick it dead

Actually, I think the correct logical decision. If they kick for goal there is a chance the ball stays in play and Saracens go the length and score. 4 points then becomes 1. Also, they think, almost certainly correctly, that come seasons end it will not be Saracens they are competing with for position, so whether or not Saracens get a point is irrelevant Newcastle.

To your point, in the second half Falcons were playing into a pretty stiff wind at times. Sometimes it is better just to take the W and move on.

Fin Smith off after 3 mins?

Hope nothing serious

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Dave Jackson
Fin Smith off after 3 mins?
Hope nothing serious

HIA, which he failed

He passed the HIA but failed to come back on within the 10 minute window.

I have never seen that before, I feel for him he's not getting much luck at the moment

We need to establish a pattern here - we are just sooo loose. Defensively we are miles off as well.

Need some control

Another interception…

That centre combination is just not strong enough, especially minus Smith at FH.

Paying some pretty dumb rugby here. Glos seem to want this much more, which considering this is pretty much not far off must win to keep pace, isn't great.

Edit to say Gloucester have been decent, but we have made this very easy for them over this half.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:11:30:15:40:30 by herbie85.

Well - adding Dinger has not helped much… sadly.

Winning nothing upfront - but what has happened to the defence ?? Porous !

The return of the early season lack of physicality and intensity. Just being out competed.

Need another one of those half time team talks!

Clocks in the red. Get the ball off the pitch. Conceding the penalty there really is unforgivable.

Outmuscled in the forwards outthought in the backs. That was a really poor first half.

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herbie85
Clocks in the red. Get the ball off the pitch. Conceding the penalty there really is unforgivable.

Absolutely right

It’s very strange. The near total lack of organisation is startling. Last year it seemed that everyone knew what they were doing, and would do it quickly and effectively. Now it seems like the players have never met.

Let’s hope a team talk and reset is all that’s needed.

How can our medical team not complete a standard procedure in an allocated time poeriod?

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Push Over
How can our medical team not complete a standard procedure in an allocated time poeriod?

Genuine question, would it not be independent? If it's our own medical team, it's very poor!

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Push Over
How can our medical team not complete a standard procedure in an allocated time poeriod?

I was wondering the same. I'm not sure I have ever heard of someone passing a HIA before but running out of time.

This is going to be a long season, isn't it?

Feels like teams are getting bonus points against us just for turning up too. (Yes, am conscious Glaws need one more try; am also conscious the probability of them not getting it is close to 0%.)

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herbie85

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Push Over
How can our medical team not complete a standard procedure in an allocated time poeriod?

Genuine question, would it not be independent? If it's our own medical team, it's very poor!

It can be either, depending what has been agreed before kick-off.

It also takes 12 minutes real time

Very sadly Gloucester just appear to want it more based on the first half. I was really hoping to see a reinvigorated, improved Saints after a lacklustre start to the season. We’ve hardly stepped foot in their half ball in hand in the entire half.

Dumb intercept passes. Hold onto the ball and take the hit instead. Defence consistently too narrow - Hendy saved our bacon twice or we’d have been 2 more tries down.

Where is the desire? Carreras does an up and under and it’s Davison competing with him for the ball!

We could have kicked the ball off for half time and we pass it and concede a penalty. The Gloucester forwards are all over breakdown, clearly wanting it more.

The team need the hairdryer treatment at halftime.

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SaintsDuncan

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herbie85

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Push Over
How can our medical team not complete a standard procedure in an allocated time poeriod?

Genuine question, would it not be independent? If it's our own medical team, it's very poor!

It can be either, depending what has been agreed before kick-off.

It also takes 12 minutes real time

Fair enough. Surely a potential issue for the game if they are not independently assessed - I'm sure clubs wouldn't take risks, but in certain circs I'm sure they could.

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herbie85

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SaintsDuncan

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herbie85

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Push Over
How can our medical team not complete a standard procedure in an allocated time poeriod?

Genuine question, would it not be independent? If it's our own medical team, it's very poor!

It can be either, depending what has been agreed before kick-off.

It also takes 12 minutes real time

Fair enough. Surely a potential issue for the game if they are not independently assessed - I'm sure clubs wouldn't take risks, but in certain circs I'm sure they could.

There's a lot of governance covering it, that was just the relevant bit for this conversation :-)

Much better urgency in the second half but still technically pretty poor.

Need to take advantage now Saints. COYS

Oh...

Oh well! It’s about time we learned not to take the first 40 mins off!

Would it have been different with Fin?

Top 2 over
Top 4 not likely

Unfortunately we got what we deserved today. Some will point to the disallowed tries, but for me they were shots to nothing against defenders as opposed to clear cut opportunities for sleightholme. Overall we were really inaccurate. Woodthorpe wasn't great but didn't influence the result really, just some slightly weird calls - but we didn't play him well, especially in that first 40.

Mitchell looked really sharp on the positive. Unfortunately I think that was almost must win, even at this stage of the season.

Another game in which we fail to pick up a single bonus point. Shocking performance.

Line in the sand game that. An unacceptable level of poor decision making and accuracy that can't happen again.

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Saint dolph
Top 2 over
Top 4 not likely

Tend to agree with that. The table doesn't look good, and barring winning some very difficult games away from home, the ground will be difficult to make up.

We were poor in so many ways: But the main ones that spring to mind are

Inaccuracy - cant take a tap penalty, lost line outs in red zone, scrum penalties in red zone.

Daft penalties - notably last obe conceded, but also Coles late tackle on glos 9.

And even off the field we coukdnt do an HIA in the alloted time.

Dear oh dear
That was a frustrating watch

We could have scored more tries but I could have won the lottery if only ……

Little control from the forwards
Maybe underpowered

But is it time to agree that we lost and didn’t replace power and experience from last couple of seasons for the forwards

There maybe some youngsters coming through but 2/3 seasons away at best

Knock ons when the line in sight, forward passes, failing to get the ball down, missed kicks at goal, interception tries, giving a penalty away when the clock turned red we really found just about every way possible to lose that one.

A really poor performance technically, you cannot be that poor in defence if you can only score two tries and don't take kicks or get them over.

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herbie85
Woodthorpe wasn't great but didn't influence the result really, just some slightly weird calls - but we didn't play him well, especially in that first 40.
Mitchell looked really sharp on the positive. Unfortunately I think that was almost must win, even at this stage of the season.

Not the reason we lost, but my feeling was that the officials were all over every marginal thing we did but not fussed by much from Gloucester. Did Singleton throw a single straight lineout on the second half? His throwing technique makes the ball veer often left once past the middle of the lineout, but it was only picked out when it went totally behind the Glaws lineout.

Then watch Wade's pass for the first try of the game and tell me it doesn't merit at.least a review for being forward? [x.com]

See also the irony of Mitchell's offload being deemed forward, followed by a scrum feed (aren't they supposed to be straight too) straight to Mercer's feet at the back of the scrum.

Agree about Mitchell. Struggling for anything else though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:11:30:17:37:41 by Matthew.

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herbie85

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Saint dolph
Top 2 over
Top 4 not likely

Tend to agree with that. The table doesn't look good, and barring winning some very difficult games away from home, the ground will be difficult to make up.

Willing to call it now. We'll finish in 8th place above Chiefs and Newcastle, with a comparable WDL to the team in 6th but down on bonus points. Out in the group stages in Europe and SF in the Prem Cup.

Spot on Ajack

Even though I feel we starting to fall behind the pack I can't help thinking we are still a better side than the likes of Gloucester. We were awful and still could of won that game . I really felt saints would go on a run of wins. Bristol look like champions to me and unfortunately I feel we won't have chance to stop them from our poor start. Bath or Bristol now for the title

Noticeable that the teams that supplied players (or more players) to AIs all have lost so far this weekend!

Yes Gloucester had Anscombe, Carreras & Llewellyn missing during the Autumn but not the 9 (?) Saints did.

Bring back Friday night lights. Was like being at a funeral today and the players seem more up for it under the floodlights

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Hygge
Bring back Friday night lights. Was like being at a funeral today and the players seem more up for it under the floodlights

Agree. Worst atmosphere I can remember in long time

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Saint dolph

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Hygge
Bring back Friday night lights. Was like being at a funeral today and the players seem more up for it under the floodlights

Agree. Worst atmosphere I can remember in long time

The crowd's often flat when the team aren't performing, and Glaws came out way harder (and fired up?) than we did. Which then leads to a vicious circle of the team not getting up because the crowd's flat, and the crowd being flat because the team aren't producing much to be excited about. Thought the crowd was better in the second half, for obvious reasons

I suspect we're quite a fickle lot in Northampton - I find the crowd at Sixfields similarly quiet a lot of the time.

I know I have banged on about this many times before but I just don’t see any leadership out there when things are going awry. Who is bossing the front row ? Who is kicking backsides in the huddle after an opposition score ? There are times to be patient, there are times to up the tempo - we don’t seem to be able, this season at least, to actually manage games the way that we should be able to. Gloucester are not a great side but the back three of Thorley, Carreras and Wade seem to frighten Saints to death until the former went off. Such is the Saints away form, they cannot afford to lose games like this at home, doubly so when in four losses, not a single bonus point has been achieved.

Flat atmosphere, worst in years
2 really important hias (smith, Hendy)
No physicality
Flat
Disallowed tries( sleightholme x2)
Stupid penalities
First time I've not noticed pollock do anything
How often do you see Pearson get steam rollered?

Of all teams we could of lost our home record to it was gloucester. Don't want to disrespect them but they are not a top 4 team. They are better but they not getting top 4. Imagine playing like that against bristol. Would of been a cricket score .

Must be the 10 pints I sunk but I still feel we should of won that even know we were shocking .

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Saint dolph
Even though I feel we starting to fall behind the pack I can't help thinking we are still a better side than the likes of Gloucester. We were awful and still could of won that game . I really felt saints would go on a run of wins. Bristol look like champions to me and unfortunately I feel we won't have chance to stop them from our poor start. Bath or Bristol now for the title

I don't think the title is won at this point in the season. You need to be functioning at the business end and having a bit of good fortune with injuries.

But you do need to stay in touch and we don't appear to be doing that. With the exception of at home against Sale we have looked pretty out of sorts this season to start losing at home and not even getting a LBP against that Gloucester side really is poor.

"Fin Smith passed his head injury assessment but he couldn't see out of one of his eyes because he got a knee to the eye," Dowson said. "He passed his HIA but he had blurred vision in one of his eyes so he couldn't continue.

Thanks Simon, that clears that one up.

And lets not get caught up in disallowed tries - all three were the correct decision.

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Push Over
Thanks Simon, that clears that one up.
And lets not get caught up in disallowed tries - all three were the correct decision.

100 percent correct decisions . Game of fine margins . Rugby always is.

I think the main issue, which we’ve seen in a few losses now, is the depowering of our pack. Everything flows from that - in attack, losing collisions, slow ruck, slow ball, backs on the back foot and can’t get wide. And in defence losing first up tackles, fast opponent rucks, go backwards at rate of knots and lose defence shape and intensity.

The news of losing Augustus - our best carrier today - puts all that into even sharper relief.

All that aside, the worst thing today was the complete lack of game management, esp. when the team is not firing on all cylinders: Early on in the yellow card period, Glos are blowing and we have a shot in front of the posts to get within a score. A few minutes later another shot in the middle albeit a bit further out. Turned down both and the rest was predictable. Ironically we then take a shot with just minutes to go, too late by then. Not even a great Glos team IMO.

Nowhere near top 4 at this rate but in part we’re victims of our own success both on the field (teams working us out) and off the field (can’t attract or retain X factor forwards).

Every team raises their game against the Champions and also Gloucester will have had the reminder of that last loss in their heads all week!

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Push Over
We were poor in so many ways: But the main ones that spring to mind are
Inaccuracy - cant take a tap penalty, lost line outs in red zone, scrum penalties in red zone.

Daft penalties - notably last obe conceded, but also Coles late tackle on glos 9.

And even off the field we coukdnt do an HIA in the alloted time.

Not sure anyone understood the scrum penalties, including the officials.

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Matthew

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herbie85
Woodthorpe wasn't great but didn't influence the result really, just some slightly weird calls - but we didn't play him well, especially in that first 40.
Mitchell looked really sharp on the positive. Unfortunately I think that was almost must win, even at this stage of the season.

Not the reason we lost, but my feeling was that the officials were all over every marginal thing we did but not fussed by much from Gloucester. Did Singleton throw a single straight lineout on the second half? His throwing technique makes the ball veer often left once past the middle of the lineout, but it was only picked out when it went totally behind the Glaws lineout.

Then watch Wade's pass for the first try of the game and tell me it doesn't merit at.least a review for being forward? [x.com]

See also the irony of Mitchell's offload being deemed forward, followed by a scrum feed (aren't they supposed to be straight too) straight to Mercer's feet at the back of the scrum.

Agree about Mitchell. Struggling for anything else though.

Don’t forget that the TMO was Martin Fox who has history in this fixture. Particularly the game he refereed where he allowed about an hours ( ok I exaggerate) extra time for Gloucester to score.

It was a bad omen when Fin went off so early. The worst we have played at home in a long time. Very disjointed and inaccurate - to not even get a point is not good enough if we have any intention of retaining our title.

Our defence has improved enormously since the arrival of Radford, but it was still mid-table in terms of points conceded last season, I think. Our success therefore relied on impressive attack. This season that has deserted us, so far. Mitch's injury is probably part of that, but we can't be that reliant on a single player. We need to find that spark again very soon.

Have to also mention Woodthorpe and the TJs - really poor.

It was a bad omen when Fin went off so early. The worst we have played at home in a long time. Very disjointed and inaccurate - to not even get a point is not good enough if we have any intention of retaining our title.

Our defence has improved enormously since the arrival of Radford, but it was still mid-table in terms of points conceded last season, I think. Our success therefore relied on impressive attack. This season that has deserted us, so far. Mitch's injury is probably part of that, but we can't be that reliant on a single player. We need to find that spark again very soon.

Have to also mention Woodthorpe and the TJs - really poor.

Question to those that know the laws in more detail than me.
For Ollie’s disallowed try where deemed to have knocked on why is it ok to take a player out in the air that’s diving for the line whereas if you touch anyone in the air anywhere else it’s a penalty

I was surprised to see Fox as TMO, tbh I thought he was long gone. I remember that game at Gloucester when he seemed to be determined to give the home side one last chance to Nick the game which they did……I seem to remember about ten Glaws players being offside at the final restart.

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NGSB
I was surprised to see Fox as TMO, tbh I thought he was long gone. I remember that game at Gloucester when he seemed to be determined to give the home side one last chance to Nick the game which they did……I seem to remember about ten Glaws players being offside at the final restart.

Yes. There was then a scrum - the ball came out of the scrum and was kicked back in before Glaws were then awarded a penalty. Even Healey thought it was a farce.

When did our players start thinking the man they're passing to is nine foot tall? It's happening more and more if a player is successful enough to catch the pass he's then left in the perfect position for an incoming tackler to take him out.

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Stevie Myler's right boot
Question to those that know the laws in more detail than me.
For Ollie’s disallowed try where deemed to have knocked on why is it ok to take a player out in the air that’s diving for the line whereas if you touch anyone in the air anywhere else it’s a penalty

That is an interesting question to the exact definition.

To the best of my knowledge it is also illegal to jump into a tackle and you cannot dive over the top of a ruck as they do in the NFL.

Enjoyable afternoon with a bumper and noisy crowd (especially in our section of Tetley's - always a pleasure to hear Flat’s exhortations to Sir😆). Some good rugby, albeit most of it in the first half by Glaws - well done to them. Nobody died. Onwards and upward!

As already mentioned on the Officials post and name checked in TV Commentary, TMO was apparently Andrew Jackson.

Does anyone else feel saints turned up yesterday with the attitude they were always going to win which resulted in a completely flat first half?

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Saint dolph
Does anyone else feel saints turned up yesterday with the attitude they were always going to win which resulted in a completely flat first half?

I’m not sure of the reason but Saints do seem to have difficulty getting started
Whether it’s the warm up or just not being mentally prepared

The amount of times we have seen a poor first half, league and cup, is a concern

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Deesaint

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Saint dolph
Does anyone else feel saints turned up yesterday with the attitude they were always going to win which resulted in a completely flat first half?

I’m not sure of the reason but Saints do seem to have difficulty getting started
Whether it’s the warm up or just not being mentally prepared

The amount of times we have seen a poor first half, league and cup, is a concern

I thought they said in commentary we had scored eight tries in the first twenty minutes the second highest in the league?

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ajack

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Deesaint

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Saint dolph
Does anyone else feel saints turned up yesterday with the attitude they were always going to win which resulted in a completely flat first half?

I’m not sure of the reason but Saints do seem to have difficulty getting started
Whether it’s the warm up or just not being mentally prepared

The amount of times we have seen a poor first half, league and cup, is a concern

I thought they said in commentary we had scored eight tries in the first twenty minutes the second highest in the league?

How many do we concede in the first 20?

Seconds?

I still think that losing Ribbans, Lawes, Moon, Waller, Ludlam, Matevesi and Hill in a relatively short period of time is making life difficult for Saints. Injuries at the moment to Kemeny, Graham and CHH don’t make life much easier either. Pearson, Munga and Pollock are still quite raw and the front row is lacking some real beef compared to some other Clubs. The loss of Augustus at the end of the season won’t exactly improve the situation.

Maybe top four is about as good as it can get in the regular season with Bristol and Bath going so well. Losses for Quins, Saracens and Tiggers this weekend at least demonstrate that most Clubs are capable of slip-ups in games they might be expected to have a good chance of winning.

A run in Europe would be useful but those away trips do look a little formidable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:12:01:18:16:36 by NGSB.

I think the AIs were very disruptive and hopefully the European games will serve as a bit of an antidote. I fear international squad activities mess with the lads heads, playing style and training changes, will or won’t get a cap etc. They played yesterday like a bunch of discombobulated chickens. A few weeks of regular training and focus on Europe should get them to gell and we’ll be back in form for the next block of Prem matches.

Whilst player loss is biting us, my concern is whether Saints being 8 out of 10 in the table is less about player losses and more about resting on our laurels after winning the title.

We were easily the best team last year and went close in a European semi-final.

From our best matchday 23 last year,

- Waller replaced by West and Iyogun and Haffar a year more grizzled. No loss
- Moon replaced by CHH. A power loss
- Lawes replaced by Kemeny. The biggest loss. Courtney had a unique skillset
- Ludlam replaced by Pearson/Pollock. Pearson was already 1st choice last year and Pollock is already good and could be great

The losses simply don't add up to going from easy best in the league to 8th. With our squad and slick attacking and defensive systems we have built we should be top 4.

We’ve still got 11 England internationals, 4 other internationals, plus 5 England A players. We have a shedload of talent.

But it makes more sense if we have taken our foot off the gas.

Hopefully losing at home to Gloucester without a bonus point is the wake up call needed as, bar the Sale game, we haven’t looked right all season.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:12:01:20:04:38 by Saint Maul.

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Saint Maul
Whilst player loss is biting us, my concern is whether Saints being 8 out of 10 in the table is less about player losses and more about resting on our laurels after winning the title.
We were easily the best team last year and went close in a European semi-final.

From our best matchday 23 last year,

- Waller replaced by West and Iyogun and Haffar a year more grizzled. No loss

- Moon replaced by CHH. A power loss
- Lawes replaced by Kemeny. The biggest loss. Courtney had a unique skillset
- Ludlam replaced by Pearson/Pollock. Pearson was already 1st choice last year and Pollock is already good and could be great

The losses simply don't add up to going from easy best in the league to 8th. With our squad and slick attacking and defensive systems we have built we should be top 4.

We’ve still got 11 England internationals, 4 other internationals, plus 5 England A players. We have a shedload of talent.

But it makes more sense if we have taken our foot off the gas.

Hopefully losing at home to Gloucester without a bonus point is the wake up call needed as, bar the Sale game, we haven’t looked right all season.

Apart from looking underpowered up front not helped by having Graham, Augustus and Coles out injured as well as losing Matavasi our defence has looked a long way off from last season.

With the exception of against Sale and the odd ten minutes here and there when have we looked slick in the backs all season?

I think much of the loss is in the heads of the players, much of Gloucester’s attack came off saints playing flat miss passes when glos were very quick and flat in defence also. Meant the odd interception or pass to somebody about to be tackled. Put them on the back foot too many times. Need to be street smart and adapt, maybe play a bit deeper or play simpler, whatever. Saints tried too hard and to be clever and when it didn’t come off, they suffered.

As I suggested above, I think they were just a little out of sorts, not playing together cohesively and I’m afraid they really missed Fin bringing some composure. Playing with several backs out of position when Hendy was forced off too really didn’t help. I think that as a team we can be forgiven for playing a bit like England!

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ajack

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Saint Maul
Whilst player loss is biting us, my concern is whether Saints being 8 out of 10 in the table is less about player losses and more about resting on our laurels after winning the title.
We were easily the best team last year and went close in a European semi-final.

From our best matchday 23 last year,

- Waller replaced by West and Iyogun and Haffar a year more grizzled. No loss

- Moon replaced by CHH. A power loss
- Lawes replaced by Kemeny. The biggest loss. Courtney had a unique skillset
- Ludlam replaced by Pearson/Pollock. Pearson was already 1st choice last year and Pollock is already good and could be great

The losses simply don't add up to going from easy best in the league to 8th. With our squad and slick attacking and defensive systems we have built we should be top 4.

We’ve still got 11 England internationals, 4 other internationals, plus 5 England A players. We have a shedload of talent.

But it makes more sense if we have taken our foot off the gas.

Hopefully losing at home to Gloucester without a bonus point is the wake up call needed as, bar the Sale game, we haven’t looked right all season.

Apart from looking underpowered up front not helped by having Graham, Augustus and Coles out injured as well as losing Matavasi our defence has looked a long way off from last season.

With the exception of against Sale and the odd ten minutes here and there when have we looked slick in the backs all season?

Maul - I partly agree, but the loss of Lawes was always going to be significant and we haven't really seen any of CHH so far - so in effect we are down a player if you view CHH as Moons' replacement. Add in a few other disruptive injuries and that goes some of the way to explaining our indifferent start to the prem season. Looking forward I'm concerned that we appear to be overly reliant on Augustus as a ball carrier - I really hope we try and find a strong ball carrier, of international (or near-international) quality as a replacement.

But agree we should be managing this better and also with ajack re only looking slick for a sustained period of time in the Sale match. My interpretation of the season so far (hard to compare game by game as the 90-0 win over Glaws last season skews things) is that our defence has been slightly worse than last season, but attack has been more noticeably inferior.

As tough as it would be saints need to look at what sale did last year. Pretty sure they were seen as being out of contention at half way mark then they ended up in 3rd. The sarries match is huge .

The one player that doesn't seem to get mentioned much is Odendaal. For years Saints threw it around and looked good when it clicked but usually came unstuck against the better sides.

A change in coaches and DOR saw us take defence more seriously and we looked a much better team for it. We also toned our attack down to be more percentage based rather than the interception tries we used to give away and did again on Saturday. In Odendaal we had a point of focus to truck it up and fix a defence but still giving the option of playing off him or around him.

It is fine having all these flash players but you also need some glue to keep it together.

Was a hugely frustrating game to watch - I think the other factor being teams have figured us out a little, let us play and we're deadly, make it a slow, scrappy, niggly game and we often look very average. It doesn't do much for the game as a spectacle trying to bring in new fans but in the here and now it is effective if the officials allow it.

I missed the first ten or so and therefore didn't see Fin play but it seemed like as good as they were Furbank and Mitchell were trying to win the game by themselves (very nearly worked!). Perhaps a bit of a confidence/cohesion issue with the loss of experience/leadership and internationals away - even when not playing very well we still seem to be making a fair few chances, just not converting as we were.

I hope in our quest for more ‘go forward’ we dont over work Henry Polllock.

He is so willing and would no doubt relish the challlenge, but ket’s not see him swathed in bandages and knee supports before he is much much older.

Alfie Barbery is a salient thought.

Just a thought
When we won Europe it followed a few seasons of McGeachan who left just as the team was starting to come good which Steel inherited and ‘polished’ to take us through to the win

Boyd has done a huge amount of the ground work of the team that climaxed last year

Do we now need to give PD time to develop his own style/team which looking at history will probably take 2 or 3 seasons

Quote:

Deesaint
Just a thought
When we won Europe it followed a few seasons of McGeachan who left just as the team was starting to come good which Steel inherited and ‘polished’ to take us through to the win

Boyd has done a huge amount of the ground work of the team that climaxed last year

Do we now need to give PD time to develop his own style/team which looking at history will probably take 2 or 3 seasons

Dowson did work along side / under Boyd so I wouldn't say it is the same as getting in someone completely different with completely different ideas. No idea how much if any influence Dowson had on signing when Boyd was in charge but given the lengths on contracts these days I would imagine he would have had some input into everyone in the squad.

He certainly did change things with much more emphasise on defence and discipline which allowed us to win the championship. Things will always evolve but I don't see a major change just around the corner.

The main difference between the first and second half was just a willingness to run hard and straight in order to create room out wide. It's primarily about mentality and the willingness to up the intensity and win the physical battle.

It's not that we don't have the personnel to do that. But it is likely that we are now asking more from a smaller number of players, e.g. Pearson, Augustus, Iyogun, Langdon. Particularly in the absence of Graham too.

Odendaal is also a massive miss in the centres, and we obviously failed to identify a suitable replacement in the off season. The centre partnership on Friday looked very callow indeed.

Moving forward we obviously need to up the physical intensity from the off. But we also need other players to step up and contribute more in the close carrying stakes, particularly the likes of Coles, Munga, Mayanavanua, Kemeny, etc. Also the only player that we currently have who comes close to replicating Odendaal's carrying role in the midfield is Freeman, particularly in terms of his metres post contact. I'd like to see him be given the 13 shirt for a while!

As an outsider there are a few things at play here.

Firstly as I have said before every other team will up their game against the Champions!
Secondly the large number of players away on International duty then returning is not easy to manage.
Thirdly Mitchell, Burger & Graham missing added to the players who left/retired have meant a large change in Matchday 23’s

Against Gloucester you were up against a team that had seen fewer international disruptions, that were smarting after their result against you at the Gardens.

The worry I would have is this becoming a trend for the first game in a block?