Saints v Falcons 18th Aptil 2025 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:04:24:09:06:36 by Saint Ted.

We've had 2 very physical games in the cup, and looking forward there's this game and then bristol before the semi. it's reasonable that most players will need a rest at some point, and we've seen how important familiararity is the way we play, so resting everyone at once and then getting everyone together for bristol makes way more sense than a half and half situation.

Other than 10, front row and 8 all proven Premiership players.

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WesternWanderer
Other than 10, front row and 8 all proven Premiership players.

Tom West - 83 Premiership matches.
[all.rugby]

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WesternWanderer
Other than 10, front row and 8 all proven Premiership players.

He's had URC experience and was called up for Scotland so he should be ok.

Interesting that they have gone for Charlie at 10. Earlier in the season they played Rory there and Charlie at 12, role reversal tomorrow

Not sure it matters too much. The way Saints are playing the 12 frequently stands in as first receiver, so maybe they play it more or less the same. Having Rory certainly helps make the attack more varied and less predictable.

p.s. I'm glad Dingwall has a week off. He has really earned it this season.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:04:17:15:54:27 by Saint Gordo.

Bookies have Newcastle 4-1 at home against a team that hasn’t won away. I’m wondering if that is generous. I feel somewhat confident with the strength of our bench but I’m wondering how early the trigger will be pulled to get them on if needed.

Tom V reporting

“ Another back three injury issue for Saints as James Ramm is ruled out tonight. Rory Hutchinson moves to full-back, Tom Litchfield switches to centre and Will Glister comes in on the wing. Rafe Witheat is now among the replacements. Glister and Witheat set for Premiership debuts.”

Don’t agree with Fin playing so early, when is he going to get a break?

So the 10 goes off injured. What are you proposing? Bring on the replacement 10 or or rejig everything and have a centre or scrum half play 10?

I hope that whatever happend to Fin's leg/ankle when he scored is something minor and can be strapped up and run off.

Front row have been brilliant both in the loose and tight.

Too many injuries, - could be poaying a high price.

Could be a costly night injury wise

Ramm still battered from Castres and unable to start.

Then Savala and Pearson and possibly Smith!

I wonder how much of these injuries could be down to a rock hard fake pitch?

Pearson, savala both off injured. Concerns over Mapu and Smith.

Not impressed with these surfaces, particularly unforgiving if they are dry.

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northampton_lad
Don’t agree with Fin playing so early, when is he going to get a break?

He had a compulsory week off just after the 6N

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St Stokey.
I wonder how much of these injuries could be down to a rock hard fake pitch?
Pearson, savala both off injured. Concerns over Mapu and Smith.

Phil Pask on the radio has just said there is no evidence yet to show that artificial pitches cause more injuries

Didn’t expect this scoreline! Some good performances out there. But the injuries are indeed worrying.

Fin should come off now

Yes he should!
Rollox

Just goes to show the game should be played on grass

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SaintsDuncan

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St Stokey.
I wonder how much of these injuries could be down to a rock hard fake pitch?
Pearson, savala both off injured. Concerns over Mapu and Smith.

Phil Pask on the radio has just said there is no evidence yet to show that artificial pitches cause more injuries

The important word there is yet. The same was said about head impacts in the past.

I'm not sure any of the injuries were caused by or exacerbated by the pitch. If the tackler acidentally falls on you the pitch is irrelevant.

+1

I feel that the pitcgescdoncause grazes and abrasions…..itherevcould be more than that but but as yet unproven

Somebody teach the saints how to close out a game when you are more than a try ahead. Glad we won but that last Falcons try could have been avoided by not throwing lose ball around.

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Duckonstilts

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SaintsDuncan

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St Stokey.
I wonder how much of these injuries could be down to a rock hard fake pitch?
Pearson, savala both off injured. Concerns over Mapu and Smith.

Phil Pask on the radio has just said there is no evidence yet to show that artificial pitches cause more injuries

The important word there is yet. The same was said about head impacts in the past.

That was my word choice

Great in attack at times, very poor in defence in the wide spaces. Last defensive set was pretty awesome however.

Focussing on the positives, I thought the both Glister and Wright had fantastic first half performances. Catching the high ball and lineout throwing could not have been easy in that swirling wind and yet, both handled the conditions with aplomb.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:04:18:22:03:45 by JollyCobbler.

Hutch was solid at 15 and also think Lockett is really showing up .

The strarting front 3 were excellent.

Overall a very good win . Hopefully not too much injury damage.

Agreed JollyCobbler. Glister made some important tackles as well as being class under the high ball. Wright was some serious wheels and held a solid set piece performance in challenging conditions. I also agree on Lockett. When he’s fit and has a run of games he is very physical and mobile. Not quite at Moon level yet but I am confident he might start plugging that gap for us around the guard position.

Mapu also continues to show potential to me. A bit more confidence in his handling and fitness and he could be a fine player. A battering ram and like Augustus has quick enough feet to make post contact metres against well set defences.

Indeed, Mapu was responsible for much of our go forward until Augustus came on.

Shame we can't have both long term.

Glister was a revelation to me - showed a lot of confidence and a full range of skills and vision. Definite starter when Freeman is missiing imho.

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SaintsDuncan

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Duckonstilts

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SaintsDuncan

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St Stokey.
I wonder how much of these injuries could be down to a rock hard fake pitch?
Pearson, savala both off injured. Concerns over Mapu and Smith.

Phil Pask on the radio has just said there is no evidence yet to show that artificial pitches cause more injuries

The important word there is yet. The same was said about head impacts in the past.

That was my word choice

There is sufficient data to show artificial turf has a higher lower extremity injury rate in sports compared to grass. In my medical office we see this regularly.

Here is the summary of NFL study from the 2021 and 2022 seasons on lower extremity injuries shows increased risk on artificial turf.
"The 2021 and 2022 NFL seasons of our analysis demonstrated a higher incidence rate of injuries on artificial turf surfaces compared with natural grass surfaces. In addition, the odds of injury requiring season-ending surgery were found to be significantly higher on artificial turf compared with natural grass."
[pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Here is a small scale study into turf injuries in Rugby:
"The present study suggests that even a small percentage (3%) of synthetic content in the playing surface significantly increases match injury incidence, with an effect seen on both contact and non-contact injury incidence. These findings are important to enable practitioners to be aware of the injury implications of playing matches on hybrid and synthetic pitches."
[www.sciencedirect.com]

I’m not sure how long artificial turf has been around but you would have thought there would have been advancements in material and build to address the injury problems

Some good performances from developing/fringe players that will do no harm in their development

The replacement front row Haffar Walker and MM ( except for first scrum) destroyed the falcons scrum

Haffar is a loss

Pearson was immense before going off. We are well stocked in the back row

We lost our way in the second half Falcons found an extra gear we eased off after the last score and dropped intensity

My overriding thought was doesn’t this endorse how crazy it is to have the European competitions and fight for last four in the league happening at the same time, particularly on the back of 6N

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Deesaint
.......
My overriding thought was doesn’t this endorse how crazy it is to have the European competitions and fight for last four in the league happening at the same time, particularly on the back of 6N.........

We are proof of the nonsensical "punishment" for success.

The RFU tells us we can only play our players for so manygames. OK. So now give them the summer off. To rest. Ah, but we have a tour planned. Alongside another tour we have planned.

So that's a possible 8-10 players we could see pop off on a trip this summer, which then takes them out of contention for at least the first two games of the season. And that's before we see any early season injuries.

The season is a farce, created and "blessed" by the RFU. And the paying public/club supporters are being sold down the river.

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Longers

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Deesaint
.......
My overriding thought was doesn’t this endorse how crazy it is to have the European competitions and fight for last four in the league happening at the same time, particularly on the back of 6N.........

We are proof of the nonsensical "punishment" for success.

The RFU tells us we can only play our players for so manygames. OK. So now give them the summer off. To rest. Ah, but we have a tour planned. Alongside another tour we have planned.

So that's a possible 8-10 players we could see pop off on a trip this summer, which then takes them out of contention for at least the first two games of the season. And that's before we

see any early season injuries.

The season is a farce, created and "blessed" by the RFU. And the paying public/club supporters are being sold down the river.

Correct. We are being ripped off as STH. Not by the club , but by the system.

Memo to Austin……none of these started last night. Iyoguni, Langdon, Davison, Temo, Coles, Kemeny, Pollock, Augustus, Mitchell, Smith, Sleightholme, Dingwall, Freeman, Hendy, Furbank.

NGSB - why did you mention him, now I he is back in my mind.

Every time Saints scored - he tried to find a reason why it should be disallowed.

He is so one eyed it is embarrassing. 😡

It seems presenters have a shelf life

I was very happy when the league moved from Barnes and Morris they became mundane and added little value

I’m enjoying the commentary on PS maybe because it’s new

But Healy’s fixation with picking up on what he believes the ref has missed is becoming boring and negative

A good ref with all his support will pick up on around 85% of infringements and because they are human they will have differences in how they individually see things against their pier group They try their best

I see PS have signed a 4 year deal for euro competitions

Hopefully they can take the premiership and move away from the current mob

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Deesaint
But Healy’s fixation with picking up on what he believes the ref has missed is becoming boring and negative

Presumably this doesn’t apply to all the many ‘boring and negative’ supporters in the stands and on the terraces who are only too ready to pick up on anything they believe a ref has missed ?

RDS- that’s our prerogative as ticket paying, one eyed Saints supporters. Healey is paid to essentially analyse / entertain / be impartial and he rarely ticks 1 of those boxes. Ben Kay on the other hand I find very informative and a good style.

How they let Nick, Austin and Kay commentate on East Midlands derbies is beyond me, though. Fairly sure they all have Leicester ties

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RDS

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Deesaint
But Healy’s fixation with picking up on what he believes the ref has missed is becoming boring and negative

Presumably this doesn’t apply to all the many ‘boring and negative’ supporters in the stands and on the terraces who are only too ready to pick up on anything they believe a ref has missed ?

Most seem to question the ref’s parentage rather than decisions

Most impressed with Wright and Glister who really stepped up last night. Hopefully will get more game time this season.
Have previously been concerned about Wright’s throwing but he seemed to always hit his mark under difficult conditions. I think he has now overtaken Walker as bench hooker for the rest of the season.

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Deesaint
I’m not sure how long artificial turf has been around but you would have thought there would have been advancements in material and build to address the injury problems

These kinds of artificial turf have been commercially available for at least 20 years. The only advance that I have seen (and I am not expert) has been the hybrid types with grass combined with the plastic material. I have not seen data about the hybrid surfaces but we seen and hear the same concerns. They are also breeding grounds for MRSA bacteria, but that is another story....

I was speaking to a welsh international who has played quite a bit on Cardiffs pitch.

His view was they play very differently when dry - he was always covered in big abrasions on elbows, hips and knees.

When wet and you hit the ground there was an element of slide which helped. He was less concerned about impact on the surface.

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Saint Gordo

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Deesaint
I’m not sure how long artificial turf has been around but you would have thought there would have been advancements in material and build to address the injury problems

These kinds of artificial turf have been commercially available for at least 20 years. The only advance that I have seen (and I am not expert) has been the hybrid types with grass combined with the plastic material. I have not seen data about the hybrid surfaces but we seen and hear the same concerns. They are also breeding grounds for MRSA bacteria, but that is another story....

Wasn’t there an issue several years ago with the tiny rubber pellets that were manufactured from old tyres potentially being carcinogenic?

Yes, it's the abrasions which are uncomfortable especially since they are frequently at joints which bend, elbows and knees, and take a long time to heal. Also, the abrasions are what can allow MRSA to enter the body and become problematic. On skin is no issue.

I remember the same issue with the pellets being identified as carcinogenic. I know some manufacturers have changed some materials, and this has seemed to settle down. I don't know how they resolved that, however.

Agree about Klister, very impressed, 19 yrs old, and his work off the ball was outstanding.

I'm pretty sure I heard one of the pitches (at least) uses coconut instead of rubber pellets

Do the home teams that play on these surfaces encounter significantly more injuries?

Do teams have to make a reasoned case for the installation of an artificial surface or can they do whatever they wish according to what presumably must be a certain industrial standard ?

I just found this from a company in that sells artificial turf. Not sure I agree with all their claims, but it does provide a good overview:

[greengrassstore.com].

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Awaywin
Do the home teams that play on these surfaces encounter significantly more injuries?

Yes, and this is true for a number of sports, not just Rugby. In the NFL, the NY Giants and NY Jets both play in Met Life stadium, and both are usually at or near the top teams for the highest number of injuries going back to when the stadium opened in 2010. They have changed the turf a couple of times, but still not good enough. I believe the is more extreme in the MLS, the American soccer league. On the other hand, their high injury rates are good for business....

I see the recommendation is to install quasi natural/manufactured grass with rubber pellets

You would have thought that there would be pressure on the manufacturers to work with players and medical staff to continue to develop a product that reduces the injuries

However, I much prefer the natural stuff Saints use

Trying to remember the last time a game at Franklins was cancelled due to unplayable pitch

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Deesaint
I see the recommendation is to install quasi natural/manufactured grass with rubber pellets
You would have thought that there would be pressure on the manufacturers to work with players and medical staff to continue to develop a product that reduces the injuries

However, I much prefer the natural stuff Saints use

Trying to remember the last time a game at Franklins was cancelled due to unplayable pitch

One of the problems is that the turf manufacturers have worked with the NFL, MSL (US men's soccer league) and US universities and we still have an issue.

Anecdotally, I think the newer ones are somewhat better, but that is only from our observations in our office. I think running on the different types of fake turf really does feel different from type to type. I can easily see how the soft ground-up-tyre turfs can catch boots and cause injuries, especially non-contact injuries.

On the other hand, I remembered reading that the Super Rugby Waikato Chiefs installed a newer hybrid type. I reached out to a few people but we can't find any lower extremity injury rates from before and after on that pitch. A 5 year study was supposed to happen. So I google-searched their turf and at least found their document explaining how their new turf is structured. I thought that was pretty cool so here it is:
[fmgstadiumwaikato.co.nz]

All that said, nothing can beat a nice grass pitch. As a doc, this is settled. Grass injury rates are indeed lower. And finally, as many people have said over the years, Saints have the best pitch in England. I believe that and would love to play on it.