Saints v Saracens - 17th May 2025 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:24:07:21:26 by Saint Ted.

Augustus injury is a blow. Vickers says a major doubt for next week.

hope Trokkie is mainly precautionary. damn! edit, just seen comment



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:16:11:53:30 by riverlodge.

Trokkie now too... Any info on what his injury is? Don't want to read too much into it but TJ not on the injured list so fingers crossed he is being wrapped in cotton wool for next weekend. Munga being saved for next week too?
Hope we will give them a great send off from FG tomorrow. COYS

Well its good news that TJ isn't on the unavailables list at least!

Not really sure what's going on at 2nd row. Neither Munga or Hunter-Hill is listed as unavailable. But Prowse is the one picked for the bench? Can't imagine we're resting either Munga or Hunter-Hill because they're so important to the final. So has Prowse now moved ahead of them in the pecking order?

The expected strong Saints team. Full strength bar injuries?

Could be a great game and I hope we're able to do our part in making it so.
If Dowson fancies letting your lads have a run about for twenty then bringing the subs on that would be magic.

Disaster regarding Trokkie, the balance of the back row has gone. We desperately need him fit for the final.

That injury list could make one helluva team. If we do lose to Bordeaux, we'll just have to bring our full strength team to next year's final.

All we can hope is for some luck with recoveries and heaven forbid any more injuries, particularly as extra-time is a risk in the final so we need a decent bench. European Cup finals are the games players dream of playing in and want to make themselves available even if far from 100%.

So we really, really need Augustus and James back for the final given Pearson is out. One of either Sleightholme or Furbank back would help with Litchfield on the bench. The pace of Bielle-Barret and Penaud (if fit) would really benefit with speed on our side to reduce the threat. Haffar is fine to cover West if he is injured.

Prowse over CHH on the bench is a worry. It suggests the coaches have a low confidence CHH. Prowse may have converted as a short second row but he is still carrying a front rowers belly and I thought his energy dipped v Exeter after making a decent initial impact.

The last update seemed like there was a good chance of Furbank being available for the final, just a risk in terms of that arm being banged again - would be very useful to have on the bench if deemed fit.

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LeicesterSaint
The last update seemed like there was a good chance of Furbank being available for the final, just a risk in terms of that arm being banged again - would be very useful to have on the bench if deemed fit.

The problem is what happened last time - Furbs was on the bench but had to come on early when Hendy was injured, and played almost the whole game. And was set back several weeks.

Langdon (🤞Stinger) & Ramm (Ankle) already off!!

Impossible not to have one eye on next week. Lockett injured now.

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shendy

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LeicesterSaint
The last update seemed like there was a good chance of Furbank being available for the final, just a risk in terms of that arm being banged again - would be very useful to have on the bench if deemed fit.

The problem is what happened last time - Furbs was on the bench but had to come on early when Hendy was injured, and played almost the whole game. And was set back several weeks.

That’s a risk you take for a final.

Coles limps off!!

Davison didn’t look comfortable when he was replaced.

Kemeny had ice on his shoulder!

Well, I'm no fan of sarries but if I was, I would be very peed off above that winning try from us. The offload had to be forward.

Good win saints … let’s pray all are well for next week, zoinks! That tackle in the air penalty at the corner should have been a penalty try, they chickened out of that one … but justice prevails with the last try :-P

Well well well

What a great win

Gives us momentum and a winning mindset going into next week

I would be well p———-d off if I was a Sarries fan. The last but one pass was clearly forward.

Unreal win, Wright, Weiman and Garside did amazingly well.

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Ogee
I would be well p———-d off if I was a Sarries fan. The last but one pass was clearly forward.

Didn’t look forward to me
Clearly Lichfield’s hand and arm were moving in backwards direction

I think Sarries sat back
Saints went up a gear

IMr Pearse had a total ‘’mare toward the end there. Denying Dingwall a penalty try as he throw it away.. mad - he then corrected with a pen try for a collapsed maul (that wasn’t collapsed !)

That pass from Dingers was a mile forward - so a guess this time we got the best of it but yeesh, if I was a sarries fan I’d be fuming!!

Not his best day! But at this point, good momentum for us just hope everyone got through ok and all the bumps and knocks are clear by Monday!!

I would be well p———-d off if I was a Saints fan and we'd lost that. The last pass to Gonzalez was clearly forward.

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Always2Hopeful
IMr Pearse had a total ‘’mare toward the end there. Denying Dingwall a penalty try as he throw it away.. mad - he then corrected with a pen try for a collapsed maul (that wasn’t collapsed)

I'm not sure he gave it for the collapse. I thought I heard him talking about "preventing the set up" (and the carded player did join from the side) so presumably for that

Why are people bashing Pearce he got absolutely @#$%& ALL support from his TMO Dean Richards!

A variety of comments go to emphasise just how confusing the laws and their interpretation are today. Even for those that follow the game.

As far as I am concerned Dingers was tackled in the air. Penalty. No try since it could not be said (in my mind) that a score was certain.

Dingers' pass to Litchfield was forward. IMO. But again, I'm blowed if I understand the thinking behind the TMOs' arguments. He had enough angles - if he chose. But like the Coles knock-on/drop/no score, he stuck to just a couple. And those very poor choices.

Record books show we won. And against Sarries - so I don't care!!

Augustus confirmed as out for Cardiff!

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SaintsDuncan
I would be well p———-d off if I was a Saints fan and we'd lost that. The last pass to Gonzalez was clearly forward.

In line for both that and our final try. Both forward!

Poetic justice

I thought Van Zyl tackled Seabrook on his knees to prevent a try, I thought Dingwall had a chance to muscle over if he was able to land, and I thought there was a forward pass for our try. Refs were terrible, but right result in the end.

Garside small in stature but heart of a Lion. Sad for the lad being released

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SaintsAsh
I thought Van Zyl tackled Seabrook on his knees to prevent a try, I thought Dingwall had a chance to muscle over if he was able to land, and I thought there was a forward pass for our try. Refs were terrible, but right result in the end.

Knowing when you've got away with daylight robbery and just keeping quiet is an underrated trait.

Hoping that saints tv have the presentations being recorded so those not there can see their send offs.

Anyone who thinks the last try was a forward pass needs to go back to school.

When running at full (or even half) speed it is almost impossible to make the ball move backwards towards your own try line as the ball is moving at the same speed as you are.

The test is about relativity. At the point you let go of the ball, does it start travelling towards the oppositions try line at a slower speed than if you had just let it go? ie have you applied some level of force of the ball in a direction away from the oppositions try line.

World rugby get this, the refs get this. There is even a nice simple video explaining it somewhere for people too thick or lazy to try and understand it.

Either way. Just look where Litchfield is when Haffer catches the ball. He is closer to Sarries try line than the ball. And would have been closer if he hadn’t been tackled. The ball clearly did not go forward

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Toga

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SaintsAsh
I thought Van Zyl tackled Seabrook on his knees to prevent a try, I thought Dingwall had a chance to muscle over if he was able to land, and I thought there was a forward pass for our try. Refs were terrible, but right result in the end.

Knowing when you've got away with daylight robbery and just keeping quiet is an underrated trait.

Very true, very true. The irony is not lost.

As pleased as I am with the result, it does feel like it has come with a cost through all the injuries

Nice to stuff Sarries at the death there, everyone looks like the walking dead though, are we gonna struggle to field a fit 23 next week ?

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Im
Anyone who thinks the last try was a forward pass needs to go back to school.
When running at full (or even half) speed it is almost impossible to make the ball move backwards towards your own try line as the ball is moving at the same speed as you are.

The test is about relativity. At the point you let go of the ball, does it start travelling towards the oppositions try line at a slower speed than if you had just let it go? ie have you applied some level of force of the ball in a direction away from the oppositions try line.

World rugby get this, the refs get this. There is even a nice simple video explaining it somewhere for people too thick or lazy to try and understand it.

Either way. Just look where Litchfield is when Haffer catches the ball. He is closer to Sarries try line than the ball. And would have been closer if he hadn’t been tackled. The ball clearly did not go forward

Are the intelligent Saints fan or are you having the day off?

Unhappy with the referees performance and to be honest ours in the last 30 but still rooting for you against BB next week.
Hope your knocks today don't impact you too badly.
It's incredible to have Prem representation in the Final. Well done and good luck.

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Toga

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Im
Anyone who thinks the last try was a forward pass needs to go back to school.
When running at full (or even half) speed it is almost impossible to make the ball move backwards towards your own try line as the ball is moving at the same speed as you are.

The test is about relativity. At the point you let go of the ball, does it start travelling towards the oppositions try line at a slower speed than if you had just let it go? ie have you applied some level of force of the ball in a direction away from the oppositions try line.

World rugby get this, the refs get this. There is even a nice simple video explaining it somewhere for people too thick or lazy to try and understand it.

Either way. Just look where Litchfield is when Haffer catches the ball. He is closer to Sarries try line than the ball. And would have been closer if he hadn’t been tackled. The ball clearly did not go forward

Are the intelligent Saints fan or are you having the day off?

Here is the video

[m.youtube.com]

It’s painful to have to listen to people banging on about “forward passes” that a clearly not forward when the video that explains it is almost 15 years old.

It’s either ignorance or stupidity (or a mixture of the too) to claim the Litchfield pass was forward after watching that video.

I thought our pass was forwards, but i think they got a number of obvious things wrong on both sides. Saracens were better in the first half and we were better in the second. With another ref i think the scoreline changes in our favour more than to Saracens. We had more "missed" chances. In reality they ran out of steam and need a better kicker. The Saracens stars did well as always but they lack the depth of past teams.

But it was bloody close.

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Duckonstilts
I thought our pass was forwards, but i think they got a number of obvious things wrong on both sides. Saracens were better in the first half and we were better in the second. With another ref i think the scoreline changes in our favour more than to Saracens. We had more "missed" chances. In reality they ran out of steam and need a better kicker. The Saracens stars did well as always but they lack the depth of past teams.
But it was bloody close.

Watch the video above. How can you think the pass was forward afterwards?

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Deesaint

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Ogee
I would be well p———-d off if I was a Sarries fan. The last but one pass was clearly forward.

Didn’t look forward to me
Clearly Lichfield’s hand and arm were moving in backwards direction

I think Sarries sat back
Saints went up a gear

More dingwalls than Litchfield IMHO that looked very suspect to say the least. Still, a wins a win, happy days.

Mixed feelings about that game. Great come back win but at what cost? Hindsight is 20-20, what do I know etc, but was very nervous when I saw Sarries coming in fully loaded and needing the points. i did wonder in the run up whether we should have used Exeter for our A team run out, much less physical than Sarries and 2 weeks to recover from any injuries. Then give the Bs a free hit against Sarries. You could see the difference between the As playing with Cardiff on their minds and the Bs / bench coming on at full bore with nothing to lose.

Happy to eat large humble pie if we do the job next week but Ramm looked bad and Langdon not much better. Worrying to hear about Coles and Kemeny too. Is it right that Augustus is out?

BuckSaint. +1 we had similar thoughts

Bucksaint,

Yes sorry Augustus is out.

Tom Vickers

“ Juarno Augustus saying his farewells here at the Gardens. He confirms he is out for the final two games. He won't play in Cardiff next weekend.”

[x.com]


🤞Langdon was only a Stinger.

My biggest concerns would be Coles & Ramm.

I know there is concern/negativity about our growing injury list but for those of us old enough to remember 2000 we had rather a large injury list then to , if I remember correctly ( and possibly completely wrong due to my age) we'd lost Nick Beale to a broken leg. Matt Dawson and Jon Sleightholme were out injured, Pat Lams shoulder was being held together by tape, Grayson was playing out of position at full back we moved Craig Moir to wing but we managed to fall over the line and win. I'm hoping for history repeating itself and would even settle for the same 9 -8 score line. Let's go with positive thoughts for this week

Thanks Tigersimon. Sob. Guess they’ll play Pollock at 8 but i prefer him at 7. But not sure who else left who could go at 8.

Hear what you say Spanish Saint, let’s hope. Underdog tag helps. I make potentially 5-6 of best starting team out, and 8-10 of best 23 out. The lesser known guys will need to be the heroes next Saturday.

Can I put a big shout out to Josh once again?
The guy is a trooper, immense in every game he plays.

Kemeny is a real stud. He might actually be the one to go to 8 for next season. He has the strength, powerfull runniung style, and tackling of an 8.

As long as no one gets injured in training and the guys who came off are OK (it's not a jinx if a doc says it), then I would presume (hope?) we go with as close to today's lineup as possible for UBB.

And speaking of the Final next weekend, Saints players know they are unfavoured again. They may mention it afterwards, but if they really need extra juice that referring to themselves as the underdog may provide, for a game of this magnitude they probably don't belong on the pitch. For many of the players the Euro Final will be the biggest match of their careers, and for all of them Europe is one of the titles they started training and planning for the day after last season ended. You can always ask Leinster how being a prohibitive favourite worked for them...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:18:06:58:14 by Saint Gordo.

I see Bordeaux played their top team yesterday

Hope Fin was ok. I am sure Luke signalled HIA to him so he had to go. Hopefully nothing ?

Looking at Garside against both Exeter and Saracens, I wonder if we are missing a trick with the lad ?

Gordo,

Surely Chick is your first choice 8 next season?

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Bucksaint
Mixed feelings about that game. Great come back win but at what cost? Hindsight is 20-20, what do I know etc, but was very nervous when I saw Sarries coming in fully loaded and needing the points. i did wonder in the run up whether we should have used Exeter for our A team run out, much less physical than Sarries and 2 weeks to recover from any injuries. Then give the Bs a free hit against Sarries. You could see the difference between the As playing with Cardiff on their minds and the Bs / bench coming on at full bore with nothing to lose.
Happy to eat large humble pie if we do the job next week but Ramm looked bad and Langdon not much better. Worrying to hear about Coles and Kemeny too. Is it right that Augustus is out?

It’s a no-win situation for the coaching team.
Had they played their strongest selection away at Exeter, rested players at home against Saracens and then perform badly in Cardiff, with the players looking off the pace, they’d probably be accused of going into the Final ‘undercooked’ Something which was levelled at Leinster in the SF, who typically had the luxury afforded them in the URC of being able to rest players before a key game.

Of course, it’s all largely irrelevant if Northampton manage to pull off another memorable win next Saturday.

I thought that was wrights best game for saints?

Weimman looks very tidy, seems pretty natural at this level.

Just seen the highlights, isn't that a knock on leading up to Sarries first try?

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tigersimon
Gordo,
Surely Chick is your first choice 8 next season?

Thanks - a senior moment and forgot he was coming! He is a terrific signing and the back row next season should be a real strength one of the best in the Premiership.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:18:10:59:50 by Saint Gordo.

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Deesaint
I see Bordeaux played their top team yesterday

Bordeaux got into a 20 points lead Castres, then took off players they wanted to wrap in cotton wool early in the second half. Then Castres started coming back and got within a converted try for the last few minutes. But Bordeaux held out.

Bielle-Biarry is the fastest runner I can remember seeing in the 15s game. He looks incredibly dangerous.

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tigersimon
Augustus confirmed as out for Cardiff!

What’s the source?

The man himself as he said so in the players presentations after yesterdays match

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Saint Maul

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tigersimon
Augustus confirmed as out for Cardiff!

What’s the source?

Tom Vickers from the Chron.

See my earlier link to his post on X.

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Saint Gordo
Kemeny is a real stud. He might actually be the one to go to 8 for next season. He has the strength, powerfull runniung style, and tackling of an 8.
As long as no one gets injured in training and the guys who came off are OK (it's not a jinx if a doc says it), then I would presume (hope?) we go with as close to today's lineup as possible for UBB.

And speaking of the Final next weekend, Saints players know they are unfavoured again. They may mention it afterwards, but if they really need extra juice that referring to themselves as the underdog may provide, for a game of this magnitude they probably don't belong on the pitch. For many of the players the Euro Final will be the biggest match of their careers, and for all of them Europe is one of the titles they started training and planning for the day after last season ended. You can always ask Leinster how being a prohibitive favourite worked for them...

Wasn't Kemeny the Players' Player of the Season? That's an award that I suspect means a lot to players - being recognised by your peers

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tigersimon
Gordo,
Surely Chick is your first choice 8 next season?

not forgetting Sam Graham

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tigersimon

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Saint Maul

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tigersimon
Augustus confirmed as out for Cardiff!

What’s the source?

Tom Vickers from the Chron.

See my earlier link to his post on X.

He said so at the after game presentation

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Santiago

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tigersimon
Gordo,
Surely Chick is your first choice 8 next season?

not forgetting Sam Graham

Fair enough. He has been out so another senior moment and I forgot about him...

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Saint Gordo

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Santiago

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tigersimon
Gordo,
Surely Chick is your first choice 8 next season?

not forgetting Sam Graham

Fair enough. He has been out so another senior moment and I forgot about him...

Has anyone seen my forceps

MSI 😂

I noticed Luke Pearce was very lenient with his timing of "use it" compared to previous matches.

Taffar was a game-changer in my view.
He solidified your scrum but we had non answer for the venom in his carrying which was so vital in getting you back in the game.
Is he really leaving you? that seems an odd call.

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jimusjones
Just seen the highlights, isn't that a knock on leading up to Sarries first try?

I thought so too, Willis definitely lost contact and regained it off a Sarries body or boot!

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RDS

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Bucksaint
Mixed feelings about that game. Great come back win but at what cost? Hindsight is 20-20, what do I know etc, but was very nervous when I saw Sarries coming in fully loaded and needing the points. i did wonder in the run up whether we should have used Exeter for our A team run out, much less physical than Sarries and 2 weeks to recover from any injuries. Then give the Bs a free hit against Sarries. You could see the difference between the As playing with Cardiff on their minds and the Bs / bench coming on at full bore with nothing to lose.
Happy to eat large humble pie if we do the job next week but Ramm looked bad and Langdon not much better. Worrying to hear about Coles and Kemeny too. Is it right that Augustus is out?

It’s a no-win situation for the coaching team.
Had they played their strongest selection away at Exeter, rested players at home against Saracens and then perform badly in Cardiff, with the players looking off the pace, they’d probably be accused of going into the Final ‘undercooked’ Something which was levelled at Leinster in the SF, who typically had the luxury afforded them in the URC of being able to rest players before a key game.

Of course, it’s all largely irrelevant if Northampton manage to pull off another memorable win next Saturday.

Was listening to an Irish podcast and they said 11 out of the Leinster starting 15 had not played for the 3 weeks preceding the semi final and over the last 7 years (so 105 players) 85 had been rested for 3 weeks before the finals- questions being asked about doing same thing over and over and expecting different outcomes

Just watched the highlights and totally agree that saracens first try should never have been allowed since the ball was knocked forward by the scrum half before passing it out and onto their try.

I have a Laws related question about the missed Seabrook opportunity when the ball was knocked out of his hands whilst the Saracens 9 was on his knees.

If there had been a tackle or a mall or a ruck and the 9 had done it from his knees then he would have been "off his feet and out of the game", but does that still apply if he is on his knees because he slipped and wasn't engaging prior to that ?

MTIA

Yes, Law 13.3.

At least a penalty. Probably a penalty try.

As for Luke Pearce saying that Dingers would have passed anyway in the 'no penalty try, tackle in the air' incident...utter nonsense.

Or the penalty against HP when Goode obstructed him to give his men time to get back to support him...

Coles changed hands so it must have been a knock on. Nonsense again. Has he never seen big men carry the ball in one hand and therefore be able to do that without losing contact.

I'm all for referees explaining their decisions, but if they make up justifications....!

We might have got the rub of the green with Dingers' pass to Litchfield, but so much else went against us.

Anyone think Freeman butchered a try scoring opportunity when he broke clear and close to hang on with two support player outside him?

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JohnI
Just watched the highlights and totally agree that saracens first try should never have been allowed since the ball was knocked forward by the scrum half before passing it out and onto their try.

I've also seen this ... looks like Coles's hand may have had just a bit of an influence on that movement of the ball too!

There is also the confusing part where a player passes backwards or flat but the ball travels forward … the Gonzalez try is a good example. You can see from the shades in the grass, the ball travels way forward but they didn’t check it and I guess thought the pass was backwards … so karma perhaps …

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AlexC
There is also the confusing part where a player passes backwards or flat but the ball travels forward … the Gonzalez try is a good example. You can see from the shades in the grass, the ball travels way forward but they didn’t check it and I guess thought the pass was backwards … so karma perhaps …

Sauce for the goose? I thought that was about 5 yards forward and doubt that kind of distance could be explained by forward momentum. But, I suppose you are right, it was balanced out by the decision on Saints last try.